D&D 5E Why do Alchemists suck?

[Zardnaar]

Is this the ENsider class? *Should* you do that? Piracy and all that

Its OGL and also Morrus has said its OK to post stuff in its entirety. Its not like I am going to go through every EN5ider and post it here.

 

[Morrus]

Its OGL and also Morrus has said its OK to post stuff in its entirety. Its not like I am going to go through every EN5ider and post it here.

I have?

OGL doesn't mean you can just take a document and distribute it. It means you can reuse the OGC in your own creations by following the terms of the license.

I don't mind at all that you've shown a page off. I don't want to set a precedent of people handing out paid content in it's entirety for free, though - that's not what the OGL does.

 

[Zardnaar]

[Edited by Morrus - posting a page or so is fine; distributing the entire product isn't. Thanks.]

 

[Zardnaar]

I have?

OGL doesn't mean you can just take a document and distribute it. It means you can reuse the OGC in your own creations by following the terms of the license.

I don't mind at all that you've shown a page off. I don't want to set a precedent of people handing out paid content in it's entirety for free, though - that's not what the OGL does.

I sent you a PM a while ago about it. I jsut post it I can cut off a few page if its a problem and I do not intend on making a habit out of out. EN5ider is cheap, go pay for it.

 

[Werebat]

There's no "but still," for this.

If you are honestly seeking input, answers, or something honest, then you shouldn't start the thread by trolling. And, for that matter, by continuing to do so. It shows not just a lack of seriousness, but a lack of desire to even engage in a productive conversation (cue up, "Just want to see the world burn," memes). Any thing productive that arises out of the troll's comments will be in spite of, not because of, those comments.

For that matter, to say that you're trolling and then attempt to deflect it by saying that it was a "serious question," is to just engage in more trolling.

To paraphrase you-

"Why, exactly, do trolling comments as presented in the OP suck?

I mean, specifically, why was the first comment a steaming pile of poop that no one would ever choose to write other than to troll?"

That people have since engaged in a productive conversation about the alchemist class is a credit to the other commenters, and not to your comments.

Wow. You know, you're right. You've really taught me a valuable life lesson here, one that I'll never forget. I'll never troll again.

 

[Werebat]

Thanks, Zardnaar.

Now, look at this class, and compare it to the basic Evoker.

Actually, to be fair, we should look at the School of Destruction alchemist and compare IT to the Evoker, since the two should have very similar niches.

Right off the bat, the destruction alchemist is giving up not only spells of level 6-9, he is also giving up a huge number of spells of levels 1-5 (not to mention cantrips).

And what does he get?

Well, there's the bombs he can throw, which should be his trademark -- but those are really just an extra memorized first level spell that is a kind of lame version of Chromatic Orb, when you look at them (I realize that the errata tried to rectify this somewhat, so it isn't quite as horrid as it appears here). OK, that's... nice. What else? The ability to craft alchemical items five times as fast... Well, the crafting rules already kind of suck, and how many alchemical items are there, really, besides acid flasks and greek fire? Maybe you could talk your DM into letting you make healing potions. Anything else? Meh. An expansion on alchemy could help this out considerably, but such an expansion does not exist.

Oh, I'm sorry -- the swift alchemy is a Discovery, and has to be chosen at the expense of something else like Poison Resistance. Well...

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

What we are talking about.

Thanks, Zardnaar. Now I'll do my best to answer Werebat's question...

Werebat, the obvious answer to "why play an alchemist?" is "unlimited Wish at 18th level." Unlike the normal Wish, which burns out when used for impressive effects, the Philsopher's Stone takes some time but could eventually grant everyone in your party resistance to every damage type permanently. If you can't think of any good Wishes after that you could just make 25,000 gp every ten days. This is pretty thematic BTW and I kind of like it, but it's definitely quite strong. (By RAW of course a wizard can get exactly the same unlimited Wishes by abusing Simulacrum and Wish, but "abuse" is a key word there. For an alchemist this usage is clearly intended, not abusive.)

Incidentally, the Philosopher's Stone totally obsoletes Elixir of Life (available at the same level). Not only is the Philosopher's Stone more potent and versatile, but it can get you the exact same life extension while still being quicker and easier to create!

The other potential answer to "why play an alchemist" is "so you can get Cure Wounds V and Inflict Wounds V as at-will cantrips at 20th level." But it is so little, so late, and with zero multiclassing allowed there's just not a lot of temptation there.

So basically, aside from the Philosopher's Stone, there's zero reason to play an alchemist. Weak spells, no really interesting features. Sure, you can get a flesh golem (greater homonculus) eventually, at the same level where wizards have just acquired a Simulacrum--but if you lose your greater homonculus, it takes 80 days (!) to make a new one, whereas the wizard can just make a fresh Simulacrum in a day. And your greater homonculus isn't much if at all better than the elementals (and potentially fey/fiends) that the wizards/bards/clerics/druids are Planar Binding at the same level, even before you take the greater homonculus's inconvenient berserker rages into account (because Flesh Golem stats) and the fact that it eats your action economy to make it attack/dodge/etc.

The Destruction gives you a bunch of spell options which are all right compared to spells (e.g. by 9th level you can be chucking 6d8 Burst Bombs with your 3rd level spell slots, which are almost as damaging as Fireball but has a more versatile damage type: acid/thunder/fire/etc.), but you're only a half-caster so you of course have much fewer spell slots.

I think you could potentially have a lot of fun as an alchemist (Warlock 2/Alchemist 18 springs to mind) but from a powergaming perspective it isn't really an attractive option except as a way of Cherry Tapping the game. "Yeah, I bested Orcus using a 12th level solo alchemist, a vial of Sovereign Glue, and my knowledge of structural engineering" will gain you a lot more street cred than "I killed Orcus with an Oathbreaker Paladin and a Necromancer's skeleton army plus forty Planar Bound Fire Elementals."

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Thanks, Zardnaar.

Now, look at this class, and compare it to the basic Evoker.

Actually, to be fair, we should look at the School of Destruction alchemist and compare IT to the Evoker, since the two should have very similar niches.

Right off the bat, the destruction alchemist is giving up not only spells of level 6-9, he is also giving up a huge number of spells of levels 1-5 (not to mention cantrips).

And what does he get?

Well, there's the bombs he can throw, which should be his trademark -- but those are really just an extra memorized first level spell that is a kind of lame version of Chromatic Orb, when you look at them (I realize that the errata tried to rectify this somewhat, so it isn't quite as horrid as it appears here). OK, that's... nice. What else? The ability to craft alchemical items five times as fast... Well, the crafting rules already kind of suck, and how many alchemical items are there, really, besides acid flasks and greek fire? Maybe you could talk your DM into letting you make healing potions. Anything else? Meh. An expansion on alchemy could help this out considerably, but such an expansion does not exist.

Oh, I'm sorry -- the swift alchemy is a Discovery, and has to be chosen at the expense of something else like Poison Resistance. Well...

Yeah, pretty much this. Plus the Evoker gets to throw his Fireballs exactly where he needs them without worrying about friendly fire, and he has a ton of other spells and abilities too (like Wall of Force, Polymorph, Counterspell, etc.) from the wizard chassis. The Alchemist has to give up one of his high-level Discoveries (14th level?) just to get access to something that was one of the Evoker's two "gimme" spells at 5th level, and obviously he has fewer and worse spell slots to power that spell with as well.

I don't want to say the Alchemist is trash, because there is some value in having a variety of concepts in a game... but mechanically, it is trash until 18th level, and then it's a one-trick pony.

I might play a Rogue 2/Alchemist X though, if I were in a game where Alchemists existed.

 

[Ancalagon]

What I meant by that is that 5E already has plenty of tools and affordances which aren't balanced on the X/day model. You can win a scenario in 5E by virtue of superior logistics, and that is baked into it by design. As Rodney Thompson wrote in his original post on bounded accuracy:



There is no "rally the town X/day" power. It's just something you can do, inherent in the roleplaying environment. And yet it's actually quite powerful.

Hiring mercenaries: balanced on cost and ability to keep them alive and motivated. Powerful, especially w/ Inspiring Leader support, depending on which mercenaries you hire.

Conjuration + Planar Binding: balanced on cost and spellcaster level. Extremely powerful. Can give you everything from elemental brutes to healers to squads of Lightning Bolt artillery spellcasters. Not really X/day-balanced, since the duration is so long.

Planar Ally: balanced on cost and spell slots. Hard to say how powerful it is since it's almost entirely DM-dependent, but more wealth obviously gets you more and better service.

Poisons: balanced on cost and action economy. Quite powerful against foes that are vulnerable to poison.

Obviously, a 5th level party which hires a dozen goblin mercenaries and outfits them with drow poison for their shortbows is going to be more successful in battle than one which relies on their intrinsic resources like 2/day 3rd level spells. The extra power is not in any way tied to intrinsic X/day abilities. Logistics is a thing in 5E--that's what I meant.

I find this post immensely frustrating. Well written, good examples, a great demonstration of what player creativity can accomplish. You are completely right... and completely besides the point.

Most of these examples are completely class independent. A 3e commoner with a bit of gumption could pull most of these off. They have nothing to do with class balance.

The planar examples are a bit more relevant but alas I have an adventure to prepare for tomorrow, so that section I will have to return to later.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I find this post immensely frustrating. Well written, good examples, a great demonstration of what player creativity can accomplish. You are completely right... and completely besides the point.

Most of these examples are completely class independent. A 3e commoner with a bit of gumption could pull most of these off. They have nothing to do with class balance.

The planar examples are a bit more relevant but alas I have an adventure to prepare for tomorrow, so that section I will have to return to later.

Do I need to give examples of how class abilities can make winning by logistics easier? I thought that was implicit, but three examples:

Mass Suggestion makes it easier to acquire your mercenary army in the first place. Geas can help keep them in line if you don't completely trust them, although that could also cause morale issues if you don't handle it right.

Swashbuckler Panache also increases your odds of being able to acquire the army, although in that case's it's probably more a case of "borrowing" the king or general who normally commands it.

Sending and Transport Via Plants ensure that you can get your army where it needs to be when you want it.

Of these, Sending/Transport Via Plants is the only one which is really X/day-ish. Clearly, 5E isn't balanced around X/day abilities, or the fact that you can circumvent "balance" this way would be a major issue.

Edit: Also, I thought it was clear that Inspiring Leader is great for keeping your mercenary army alive and loyal, and it's a class ability for everyone except variant humans. It can double or triple your troop-efficiency.