D&D 5E Why do Alchemists suck?

[FormerlyHemlock]

On a tangent...I specifically joined ENsider for alchemy options. The alchemist class didn't fit what I was looking for; no complaints--neither does the Pathfinder alchemist--I really haven't really found what I want yet.

I think my basic problem is--alchemy shouldn't be a class? It's a skill; I want to see it as something anybody might pick up. A wizard studying alchemy is gathering ingredients and making potions. A fighter studying alchemy is making bombs and grenades and fortifying his physical attributes. A rogue is using his skill in alchemy to make lock grease, acid, and traps.

Yeah, it's a subsystem, not a class. At my table it's mostly a matter of finding the right ingredients and then making some fairly simple skill checks to make sure the processing comes out right. Choosing particularly appropriate ingredients (a la Dresden Files) can yield more potent effects and/or easier skill checks.

Alchemy is like spell research whose result doesn't require any spellcasting ability to exploit.

 

[jayoungr]

I think my basic problem is--alchemy shouldn't be a class? It's a skill; I want to see it as something anybody might pick up.

I don't know if it's exactly what you're looking for, but have you checked out this product from the DM's Guild? (It's Pay What You Want.)

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/171344/Recipe-Crafting-for-Consumables

 

[Zardnaar]

Experiment to see how readable this is.



Seems clear I can put the whole class up.

 

[Ancalagon]

Experiment to see how readable this is.



Seems clear I can put the whole class up.

Is this the ENsider class? *Should* you do that? Piracy and all that

 

[Ancalagon]

5E already doesn't really do "X/day" balance, so you're not really losing much if you build yourself around some other kind of balance.

What do you mean by this? (and "X/short rest" isn't much better btw when it comes to the proper "feel").

As far as balancing on gp, I felt (and it was agreed by a lot of people) that balancing on cost was a fool's game. This is why a special resource used mostly by alchemist seemed like a better option than gold.

Incidentally, while the thread is gone, the review of this product is relevant:

https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/16/16808.phtml

Specifically see discussion on chapter 5.

 

[Werebat]

Given that you've told us you're trolling us, I think you've rather shown your hand. I don't think you're likely to get much in the way of sincere responses.

Ah, but that is a non-answer to a serious question.

The king may dismiss the fool for being a fool, of course -- that's the point of the fool, after all. But still...

 

[Werebat]

On a tangent...I specifically joined ENsider for alchemy options. The alchemist class didn't fit what I was looking for; no complaints--neither does the Pathfinder alchemist--I really haven't really found what I want yet.

I think my basic problem is--alchemy shouldn't be a class? It's a skill; I want to see it as something anybody might pick up. A wizard studying alchemy is gathering ingredients and making potions. A fighter studying alchemy is making bombs and grenades and fortifying his physical attributes. A rogue is using his skill in alchemy to make lock grease, acid, and traps.

A few people have taken a stab at it; At minimum, wouldn't it be great if things like alchemists fire, vials of acid, and tanglefoot bags upgraded every few levels so they didn't almost immediately become useless.

I also joined ENsider specifically for the Alchemist class. Which may be why it is a little bit of a sore spot for me that it was so disappointing.

A little more guidance from some source on exactly what it is that alchemy can do might help, as well as some method of scaling things like acid flasks and tanglefoot bags. But as others have pointed out, it is very hard to balance that kind of thing.

I suspect that a future ENsider article detailing alchemy that includes some perks for the alchemist class in particular (how are they better than others at utilizing alchemical stuff?) just might be able to salvage the class.

But it would be difficult, because it is difficult to balance power that is not limited by "X/day". "X/goldpiece" can get out of hand rapidly, or be completely useless, depending.

 

[Werebat]

Oh, and if you haven't seen this amusing take on the alchemist in a kids' show yet...

http://theadventuresofpussinboots.wikia.com/wiki/Artephius

"Alchemists are just like wizards -- but with SCIENCE!!!"

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

What do you mean by this? (and "X/short rest" isn't much better btw when it comes to the proper "feel").

As far as balancing on gp, I felt (and it was agreed by a lot of people) that balancing on cost was a fool's game. This is why a special resource used mostly by alchemist seemed like a better option than gold.

What I meant by that is that 5E already has plenty of tools and affordances which aren't balanced on the X/day model. You can win a scenario in 5E by virtue of superior logistics, and that is baked into it by design. As Rodney Thompson wrote in his original post on bounded accuracy:

It opens up new possibilities of encounter and adventure design. A 1st-level character might not fight the black dragon plaguing the town in a face-to-face fight and expect to survive. But if they rally the town to their side, outfit the guards with bows and arrows, and whittle the dragon down with dozens of attacks instead of only four or five, the possibilities grow. With the bounded accuracy system, lower-level creatures banding together can erode a higher-level creature's hit points, which cuts both ways; now, fights involving hordes of orcs against the higher-level party can be threatening using only the basic orc stat block, and the city militia can still battle against the fire giants rampaging at the gates without having to inflate the statistics of the city guards to make that possible.

There is no "rally the town X/day" power. It's just something you can do, inherent in the roleplaying environment. And yet it's actually quite powerful.

Hiring mercenaries: balanced on cost and ability to keep them alive and motivated. Powerful, especially w/ Inspiring Leader support, depending on which mercenaries you hire.

Conjuration + Planar Binding: balanced on cost and spellcaster level. Extremely powerful. Can give you everything from elemental brutes to healers to squads of Lightning Bolt artillery spellcasters. Not really X/day-balanced, since the duration is so long.

Planar Ally: balanced on cost and spell slots. Hard to say how powerful it is since it's almost entirely DM-dependent, but more wealth obviously gets you more and better service.

Poisons: balanced on cost and action economy. Quite powerful against foes that are vulnerable to poison.

Obviously, a 5th level party which hires a dozen goblin mercenaries and outfits them with drow poison for their shortbows is going to be more successful in battle than one which relies on their intrinsic resources like 2/day 3rd level spells. The extra power is not in any way tied to intrinsic X/day abilities. Logistics is a thing in 5E--that's what I meant.