Doug McCrae
Legend
Your choice of language isn't conducive to a productive discussion.
D&D 5E Why do Alchemists suck?
- Thread starter Werebat
- Start date
Werebat
Explorer
Let's turn this on its ear -- why, other than RP reasons, would I want to play an alchemist instead of an evoker? What does it do better than the evoker, and is that honestly worth giving up so many spells?
Werebat
Explorer
I note a distinct lack of refutation.
Given that you've told us you're trolling us, I think you've rather shown your hand. I don't think you're likely to get much in the way of sincere responses.
Zardnaar
Legend
Its missing high level spells. At the very least.
To make the AoE thing work it needs to be short rest or at will and you spend spell slots to make it better.
The alchemist doesn't really have anything to fall back on like the ranger and paladin once spell slots are gone. Ots a half caster that sucks at what its trying to do with no fall back plan.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Can you describe the class abilities so I can put on my powergamer hat and give you my take? Or at least post some kind of link to the class?
Ancalagon
Dusty Dragon
I am not an ENsider (maybe I should be - EN world really deserves a few of my dollars). So I can't comment directly on this class as I haven't seen it. BUT I can comment on alchemist in general.
1: Alchemists are *really hard* to do right. See an alchemist is almost like some guy with a box of magical bombs, elixirs, solvents etc. It doesn't lend itself well to "X times per day" balance. Can we accept that the sorceress "ran out of magic" because she's mentally exhausted? Sure, and it makes sense that a high level sorceress has more mental fortitude (and can cast more spells). With the alchemists... not so much. The intuitive "no more magic" limit is not mental exaustion or some arcane inner resources being exhausted, but rather "my box of tricks is empty".
I had a *huuge* thread about this a while ago (but alas, it vanished with the database crash) and no one really managed to find a suitable alternative to "X times per day" as a balancing tool. We discussed having some rare resources that alchemists could use to power their spells, but even then we couldn't agreed on how to balance this special resource. So unless you bite the bullet and go "ok fine, X times per day", it's very hard to balance the alchemist. But if you do take the "X times per day" approach, then your differentiation from the wizards etc is not so good.
2: The pathfinder alchemist class was brilliant. It took that restriction and did the most possible with it. I played one for over a year and was *very* satisfied with my character. It had 3 branches of magical power - the mutagen, bombs and potions/spells. None of those, by itself, was great, but having access to all of them gave you a lot of variety and reasonable power.
So the ENsider 5e version has big shoes to fill *and* several obstacles. First it can't be too much like the pathfinder version. First of all that would be plagiarism, and while it's perfectly fine for one's home campaign (mental note: do this for NPCs...) it's not ok to do so for a publication like ENsider. Second of all it may be too complex for 5e with its 3 branches. Lastly, some of its power - buff everyone with potions! - isn't really in the spirit of 5e, which has a lot less buffing magic in general.
3: I'm not sure your tone will result in constructive discussions. Many people will simply choose not to engage.
1: Alchemists are *really hard* to do right. See an alchemist is almost like some guy with a box of magical bombs, elixirs, solvents etc. It doesn't lend itself well to "X times per day" balance. Can we accept that the sorceress "ran out of magic" because she's mentally exhausted? Sure, and it makes sense that a high level sorceress has more mental fortitude (and can cast more spells). With the alchemists... not so much. The intuitive "no more magic" limit is not mental exaustion or some arcane inner resources being exhausted, but rather "my box of tricks is empty".
I had a *huuge* thread about this a while ago (but alas, it vanished with the database crash) and no one really managed to find a suitable alternative to "X times per day" as a balancing tool. We discussed having some rare resources that alchemists could use to power their spells, but even then we couldn't agreed on how to balance this special resource. So unless you bite the bullet and go "ok fine, X times per day", it's very hard to balance the alchemist. But if you do take the "X times per day" approach, then your differentiation from the wizards etc is not so good.
2: The pathfinder alchemist class was brilliant. It took that restriction and did the most possible with it. I played one for over a year and was *very* satisfied with my character. It had 3 branches of magical power - the mutagen, bombs and potions/spells. None of those, by itself, was great, but having access to all of them gave you a lot of variety and reasonable power.
So the ENsider 5e version has big shoes to fill *and* several obstacles. First it can't be too much like the pathfinder version. First of all that would be plagiarism, and while it's perfectly fine for one's home campaign (mental note: do this for NPCs...) it's not ok to do so for a publication like ENsider. Second of all it may be too complex for 5e with its 3 branches. Lastly, some of its power - buff everyone with potions! - isn't really in the spirit of 5e, which has a lot less buffing magic in general.
3: I'm not sure your tone will result in constructive discussions. Many people will simply choose not to engage.
Zardnaar
Legend
The Pathfinder alchemist afaik is OGL. You could put the whole thing up and its fine the OGL cuts both ways.
The EN5ider one is also OGL you can post the entire class here.
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Salamandyr
Adventurer
On a tangent...I specifically joined ENsider for alchemy options. The alchemist class didn't fit what I was looking for; no complaints--neither does the Pathfinder alchemist--I really haven't really found what I want yet.
I think my basic problem is--alchemy shouldn't be a class? It's a skill; I want to see it as something anybody might pick up. A wizard studying alchemy is gathering ingredients and making potions. A fighter studying alchemy is making bombs and grenades and fortifying his physical attributes. A rogue is using his skill in alchemy to make lock grease, acid, and traps.
A few people have taken a stab at it; At minimum, wouldn't it be great if things like alchemists fire, vials of acid, and tanglefoot bags upgraded every few levels so they didn't almost immediately become useless.
I think my basic problem is--alchemy shouldn't be a class? It's a skill; I want to see it as something anybody might pick up. A wizard studying alchemy is gathering ingredients and making potions. A fighter studying alchemy is making bombs and grenades and fortifying his physical attributes. A rogue is using his skill in alchemy to make lock grease, acid, and traps.
A few people have taken a stab at it; At minimum, wouldn't it be great if things like alchemists fire, vials of acid, and tanglefoot bags upgraded every few levels so they didn't almost immediately become useless.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
5E already doesn't really do "X/day" balance, so you're not really losing much if you build yourself around some other kind of balance. For example, if you make an alchemist who's really good at turning gold into devices/potions, and each of those potions is somewhat equivalent to a 1st-level spell (e.g. crossbow bolts that light 2d8 fires in a 5' square when they hit), then the Alchemist becomes someone who is good at the same kind of thing as a Necromancer: increasing the offensive punch of a small/medium-sized army. Not necessarily someone you'd want as part of your PC dungeon crawling party, but maybe someone who you want on your side when you're going to war.
If the effectiveness of the alchemist's devices scales, but scales sub-linearly, then the alchemist has interesting tradeoffs to make. E.g. you can swap out 2d8 fiery crossbow bolts for 3d8 bolts, but it increases the cost from 50 gp for 20 to 500 gp for 20, and 4d8 is 5000 gp. There will definitely come a point of diminishing returns where it's cheaper to recruit more troops instead of trying to increase the quality of the troops you've got.
Likewise, maybe you allow your alchemist/artificer to produce armor which is heavier and better than regular armor, but ridiculously non-cost-effective. If triple-weight Adamantine Plate Armor gives AC 20 (vs. 18 for regular plate) but weighs 1000 lbs., and is unmanageable without a daily dose of weight-cancelling Pixie Laughter Lubricant (1000 gp per hour materials cost, plus the pixie laughter; also negates falling damage for that hour) then again the alchemist/artificer has kind of an interesting niche--but it isn't one that fits into the X/day paradigm, it's more like the paradigm used by Planar Binding/Planar Ally or a warlord. (Not the Warlord kind of warlord. I mean one who employs armies.)
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