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Why do half-orcs have -2 stat adjustment?

frankthedm

First Post
BadMojo said:
IMO, it's really a bummer that you can't have a Half Orc spellcaster that isn't miles behind any other playable race from 1st level. I can't even remember the last time anyone in our gaming group played a half-orc, even for fighter types.
1 point of DC is not miles behind. Not optimum, but not miles either.

In my group, the beer and pretzels player routinely plays a half orc and only one of our players won’t play one because he can't handle having anything 'wrong' with his characters [only person in the group who does not like natural "1" = bad]

As it happens, I do allow more flexibility with the bonus and penalties. But that derives more that the monster slot “hobgoblins” took up are disciplined orc breeds in my game.

Half orc: Choose at character creation: You may take your +2 ability score bonus to STR, DEX, or CON. You may take your -2 ability score penalties to 2 different mental stats. Choose if you are disciplined [favored class Fighter], or degenerate [Favored Class Barbarian]
 

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Zimbel16

First Post
frankthedm said:
Dwarves’ speed hit is the ONLY other way to get Darkvision. [going light armor means losing the benefit of heavy armor not slowing you down.]
From core:

Goggles of Night
Spell: Darkvision (Ranger 3/Sor/Wiz 2, and it can be made permanent)
Spell: Shapechange (Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9)
Shadowdancer: LV 2
LV 16+ Druid ability (Wild Shape into an elemental)

Of course, by "ONLY" you may have meant "by taking a core race"
 


ranger89

First Post
IMHO, I don't feel that half-orcs have gotten the shaft at all. STR is a very powerful stat and the +2 half-orcs get should not be taken lightly. Every half-orc PC that I've adventured with has always been a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield. So the -2 penalties to INT and CHA are definitely needed to keep half-orcs from being over powered.

Plus, the -2 penalties add a nice flavor. They are half-ORC afterall! :)
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Question said:
I mean overall, they have unbalanced stat adjustment. Every other core non-la race has balanced out stat adjustment. The only thing i can figure out is that darkvision 60 ft is worth -2 stats?

They were designed only for powerplayers' tank-fighter types.
 


erc1971

Explorer
"Grog got big sword. Grog cut your head off! Grog no care if you think he is mean! If you think Grog is dumb - then Grog kill your pet chicken!"

I think that explains the -2 :cool:
 

Kaodi

Hero
Well, Comparing...

I would have to say that half-orcs are at least a little underpowered, even in their niche, compared to a dwarf.

For the fighter class, dwarves are flat out just better. Their only real penalty is neutralized by the fact that they don't take movement penalties for heavy armour or carrying a heavy load, and most people in this profession take full plate. Then, for abilities, the half-orc has +2 str, -2 int, while the dwarf has +2 con... Some might argue that the -2 int isn't important, but unless you are making your orc extremely stupid (in which case, the player was probably more likely to choose barbarian), that's still an extra skill point... And as for strength vs. constitution, being able to take a little more punishment isn't anything to laugh at vs. having a slightly higher chance to doing slightly more damage. So, that leaves the dwarf weapon familiarity (in a good weapon), stonecunning, stability (also good for a fighter), +2 racial saves vs. poison, +2 racial saves vs. spells and spell like effects, +1 attack vs. orcs and goblins, +4 dodge AC vs giant type +2 racial appraise/craft on stone and metal...

Now, if you turn to the barbarian, who usually wields a two-handed weapon and focuses on strength, the +2 str is somewhat better than the +2 constitution... except that the +2 constitution translates into an extra round of rage, which means +4, +6 or +8 str and con for an extra round... most fights may not go that long, but when they do, the dwarf comes out on top... Sure, in this case the movement penalty hurts a bit, but they still have a " normal " speed, and boots of springing and striding are only 5500, if you're really that concerned about the extra 10 ft... and the dwarf still gets the savings throw bonuses, and a vastly superior AC vs. giants (which I imagine are somewhat daunting for a barbarian, because they will hit often and hard, pretty much negating higher hit points and damage reduction).

So, the real problem I think isn't so much as half-orcs are so bad as to be unplayable, but that another core races is just pretty much just as good as they are at their niche. So, if the half-orc isn't even really good at what half-orcs are good at, then by extension it probably isn't going to be any good at the things that aren't its specialty, which hurts its basic desirability.

So, if I were to change it (not that I would likely be in the habit of houseruling everything when I get a chance to DM), I'd give it the aforementioned weapon familiarity (not exactly a big bonus, since I'm not sure I've ever seen a character with an orc double axe), +2 intimidate and +2 survival (which is at least as justifiable as the half-elves bonuses), make intimidate always a class skill for them and... uh... I was contemplating giving them +1 attack vs. orcs and humans, but I'm not *really* sure about that... The justification being that as outcasts, they are probably picked on mostly out of proportion by their progenitor species, thus they have to learn how to fight back at a young age...
 

Krelios said:
But they're actually not very good at that either...

I think that half-orcs are pretty well balanced. The only change I normally make is to allow them to take the Scent feat, which is a fairly minor upgrade and is mostly for flavor.

IMO, the real problem is that dwarves got too big of a power boost in 3.5, which makes the half orc look unattractive by comparison.
 

Ridley's Cohort

First Post
Put me in the Half-Orcs are well balanced camp.

They are weak only insofar as they are inflexible. But stick to their forte of Fighter/Barbarian who does not wear heavy armor and they are pretty optimal in that niche.

The designers put high value on both Str and movement. The Dwarf looks better for defensive builds, but loses out on offense and movement.
 

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