Why do most groups avoid planar games?

[Shemeska]

but that doesn't alter the fact that the cosmology as it is usually present isn't conducive to campaigning.

Tell that to anyone who ever played Planescape, or just a planar game in general within the Great Wheel.

I mean, as great and original as the Planescape setting was, it got freaking dropped.

Just as a seperate product line. Hell, it's gotten more support arguably than Greyhawk has in 3rd edition. Planes in the DMG (Planescape), 3e Manual of the Planes (Planescape), 3.5 Planar Handbook (Planescape), BoED and BoVD (Planescape), and God only knows how many monsters in the various monster manuals... All of those are just using watered down, less detailed and less stylized material that got massively expanded and elaborated upon or created in Planescape.


As for the whole argument here, it's really boiling down to vanilla and chocolate icecream. Some people can't stand planar games and can't understand why I do. I can't for the life of me wrap my brain around their opinion. Some people like vanilla icecream and some like chocolate but try convincing either of them that they're wrong.

 

[Oryan77]

I agree 100% w Celebrim, I had the same reaction to Oryan's post - there's nothing wrong with the campaign he describes, it just doesn't excite me. The AD&D Planes beyond the Prime were designed to be weird & freaky, the home of Elements, Energy & Alignment - to me the idea of them as Joe Schmo's home doesn't appeal. OTOH I love alternate Primes and have created loads.

Yeah but what do you think these weird & freaky planar beings do all day? Sit on a rock waiting to be summoned by primes? They have homes just like primes do. They have cultures and beliefs just like primes do. They have desires & families just like primes. That's what Planescape introduces to us. These planar beings aren't just creatures roaming a plane looking for food or sitting in a crazy citadel waiting for adventurers to explore it. Seriously, think about it. Being immortal would be a drag if you didn't "live" your life to it's fullest. They have communities and enjoy recreation just like any of us. It might be a strange type of recreation and community, but it exists. What you have to do is not think of it the way a mortal is familiar with it, or it will seem silly. Fiends don't sit around getting drunk at the bar in their city and act like fools by hitting on barmaids. But they will drink dwarf blood in a bar in their city while throwing sharp objects at a near-death mortal nailed to the wall as their version of darts. They gotta pass the time somehow.

That's not the greatest example, but I'm just saying that thinking of planar beings as just monsters to kill or worship in person at higher levels is strange to me. Everyone says planar games should be for high level only, but why would you reduce a planar beings community to nothing but a Dire Rat nest waiting to be cleaned out?

 

[philreed]

Some people like vanilla icecream and some like chocolate but try convincing either of them that they're wrong.

And some of us like both!

 

[Mercule]

For me, it's my expectation of a cosmology. The prime is the centerpiece of the multiverse. It must be. Always, always, always. It is the only real prize for the gods to fight over. It is the only place with an unwritten destiny. That sort of thing. Anything that happens on another plane is only important in the grand scheme of things in the way it impacts the prime.

That is a foundational premise to me. Deviate from that and I've no interest in the game whatsoever.

I do see a use for the planes, though. They are the homes of the gods and source (or is that distillation?) of certain properties/concepts found on the prime. When used as such, they can be of interest. Just make sure there's a reason those events have relivance to the prime.

Setting-wise, the purpose of the planes is to set something aside as "too alien" or "extra fantastic". Whether it's an area that functions as the Platonic form for "water" or as the resting place of dead mortals, it should not be something that could exist on the prime. Because, if it could, it should.

Take Hell as an example. This is a focus/source/distillation of evil. It's where very bad people go when they die. Good deities cannot reach here and even a pure paladin who is slain in Hell will have his soul trapped there for all eternity. And, of course, it is populated by hordes of critters (of various strengths) who would love little more than to rip your heart out. Not really a good spot to dungeon-delve lightly -- or even to parlay. But, if the cause is great enough, it might be worth the risk for someone from the Prime to make a quick foray for a specific task.

 

[kuje31]

It's certainly not a planescape thing. Planescape fell into lock-step with the (IMO) excrable Spelljammer cosmology for the prime, in which each prime was a single, bounded crystal sphere.

This isn't true in Planescape. The Prime Material is infinite. The Crystal Shells of Spelljammer are finite. The Crystal Shells contained the solar systems of each setting, except for Ravenloft, since Ravenloft is/was a demiplane in the Ethereal, and there were thousands of Crystals Shells inside of the infinite Prime. They also floated in the Phlo which allowed spelljammers to move from one shell to the other.

3/3.5e basically made each Crystal Shell thier own infinite Prime Material, which are seperate and different from each other. Greyhawk, the Realms, Dragonlance, etc, now all have seperate and different Prime Materials instead of the crystal shells that floated within the one infinite Prime Material of 2e.

As for planar games. I run them at all levels. I have one group that just hit level three and some of them have been on the planes already. My 2e group were only 10th level and they visited a lot of the planes.

I run games that include all of the multiverse basically. If you don't want to stay on FR, then go visit the other planes or the other worlds that exist on the Prime.

 

[ThirdWizard]

This is what a friend of mine would call, "Picking the fly[expletive] out of the pepper."

On one hand I have a portal - it goes to one place, regardless of where the players want to go. On the other hand I have a harbor full of ships - they go anywhere the players want to take them. Are you really suggesting that from the perspective of the players there is no difference? Are you really suggesting that?

Oh my! There is a huge difference. I feel sorry for the poor limited players who only have a ship. I'd much rather have Sigil with its hundreds of portals ready to take me nearly anywhere in the multiverse I need to go. Sure, I might need to do a little gather information, maybe pay someone for some information, but hey, while those ship-traveling PCs can go to country A, B, or C, my planehopper can go many many more places. A quick jaunt to the Outlands reveals several Gate Towns each with their own adventures, each leading to a different plane. Or you could go somewhere else.

Sure, if you're sitting around doing nothing waiting for the DM to throw you things to do, then you're stuck with the few portals he or she has happened to throw at you. But, then, that type of player isn't going to hop on a ship and sail where adventure awaits. He's going to sit around and wait to be told what to do anyway.

Player choice isn't a product of the setting. It's a product of those playing the game.


Which leads me to my general statement. People can berate the setting all they want, say that it offers nothing to them. I accept this. I say many of the same things about Eberron, which I would never play. I, however, would never, ever, make the assumption that Eberron isn't offering the people playing it great things, nor would I say that it is non-conductive to gaming. However, people seem to be saying this about Planescape. Shame on anyone who implies such a thing! I've played Planescape exclusively since the first boxed set came out, and I've had a great time, full of amazing adventures, and unforgettable heros and villians - and some anti-heros along the way. For many of us who play Planescape, there is absolutely nothing better, just like the diehard Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Eberron fans.

 

[Shemeska]

It's certainly not a planescape thing. Planescape fell into lock-step with the (IMO) excrable Spelljammer cosmology for the prime, in which each prime was a single, bounded crystal sphere.

If it makes you feel better, I don't use the actual crystal shells and phlogiston of Spelljammer. I just use 'crystal sphere' as a generic term for a given prime material world/solar system. They're all still there floating in the void, but it's effectively like our universe rather than the exact stuff that spelljammer put into play. Most of those details really never mattered or got much more than lipservice outside of spelljammer either as far as I could tell.

I'm sort of glad that Lords of Madness officially put the stake in that take on the prime.

Since I won't have the book for at least another week or so, humor me if you would because you got me curious. Fill me in on the dark of it. What actually does it say?

 

[primemover003]

For me, it's my expectation of a cosmology. The prime is the centerpiece of the multiverse. It must be. Always, always, always.

That is a foundational premise to me. Deviate from that and I've no interest in the game whatsoever.

LOL... this just made me think of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. What's the first thing that happens in that... Earth gets blown up. Bye bye prime world, hello fantastic journey into the unknown!!!

Planescape and planar adventuring in general is NO different than running adventures in a Prime Material setting, in terms of Dungeoncraft. You have characters, you have events, mix them together and play.

Low level adventuring starts small and ends big. No matter where you play. All PC's need 1000xp to make 2nd level. Whether they get that fighting orcs in the Pomarj, Zhents in the Dales, or raiding the Iron Palace of the Arch Lector Byrri Ymoril in Plague-Mort (gate town to the abyss) is irrelevant.

As a DM it's all about having fun. My players love FR and love the Planes, but aren't all that into GH or RL or Eberron. I personally dislike DL, but love DS and RL. It's all preference. Hate the new FR cosmology, but love eberrons (and it's religions, even if I don't like techno magic).

 

[Turjan]

Planescape and planar adventuring in general is NO different than running adventures in a Prime Material setting, in terms of Dungeoncraft. You have characters, you have events, mix them together and play.

This summarizes quite nicely why I don't like plane-hopping . On the one hand, it makes the existence of the prime somewhat pointless, on the other hand, most of these adventures can take place on the prime, anyway. You can even have your portals there .

 

[ThirdWizard]

This summarizes quite nicely why I don't like plane-hopping . On the one hand, it makes the existence of the prime somewhat pointless, on the other hand, most of these adventures can take place on the prime, anyway. You can even have your portals there .

Exactly right.

But, it is kind of like saying, "Why play Dark Sun when you can play Forgotten Realms?" The answer is inverably, "Because I like the setting."