Why do most groups avoid planar games?

[barsoomcore]

My lack of interest in "planar" games (that is, games that feature a large amount of travel between various "worlds") is two-fold:

1. As DM, it's enough work for me to come up with ONE campaign setting that's fun and rich and memorable. As soon as I open up the idea that there's a multiplicity of worlds, I need to come up with MORE. It's not impossible, sure, but it's suddenly twice as much work. Is it twice as much fun?

Of course, I could define a setting that has lots of "worlds" and just keep them limited in scope and style so that it ends up being the same amount of work. Yep. But then none of my worlds are as well-thought-out as the one world of the non-planar game (given the same amount of effort), which is less satisfying for me.

2. As someone pointed out, every alternate world reduces the importance of what happens on any single world. For players, too, if they've invested in one world and then find out it's just a little part of a much larger whole, they'll feel insignificant unless the game includes means for them to have an impact on the whole.

Fundamentally, though, planes are just window dressing. There's no real difference between a setting where the bad guys live in the kingdom next door, or on the 453rd layer of the Abyss. The job of the DM is provide a setting that's sufficiently fun and rich and can support the adventures of the party. Whether the party travels from place to place by walking or by spelljammer is a question of pure cosmetics.

 

[Psion]

Say, Barsoomcore, I seem to remember you have a pretty cool little planar jaunt. Something about a dimension that was a prison that the players couldn't escape without freeing the goddess imprisoned therein? Refresh me.

 

[S'mon]

My planar game that is working is all about scenes, and worlds on the Star Wars model - each with an immediately distinctive *schtick*. Moorcock does this a lot too. So - sandy desert world, dark forest world, hot jungle world...

 

[Desdichado]

Fundamentally, though, planes are just window dressing. There's no real difference between a setting where the bad guys live in the kingdom next door, or on the 453rd layer of the Abyss. The job of the DM is provide a setting that's sufficiently fun and rich and can support the adventures of the party. Whether the party travels from place to place by walking or by spelljammer is a question of pure cosmetics.

That's my issue, if issue is what you call it. There are a lot of cool plot hooks and locales and characters in "the planes." But can't you have the same cool plot hooks, locals and characters next door if you want to? Why do you have to go into planar travel to get to the truly exotic? In a fantasy setting, the area across the ocean, or heck, across the river, can be just as exotic if you want.

 

[Psion]

That's my issue, if issue is what you call it. There are a lot of cool plot hooks and locales and characters in "the planes." But can't you have the same cool plot hooks, locals and characters next door if you want to? Why do you have to go into planar travel to get to the truly exotic? In a fantasy setting, the area across the ocean, or heck, across the river, can be just as exotic if you want.

Funny you should put it that way, because that's precisely why I picked up on Mearls' "River of Worlds" model for the planes. You can just sail to what are, for all practical purposes, other planes.

 

[The Shaman]

But really, infinite planes -- or lack thereof -- are not implicit in planar gaming.

I don't have my DMG handy, but I seem to recall that at least some of the planes in the standard cosmology are described as infinite. While I agree that it's not inherent in planar adventuring in a general way, I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) it is a conceit of the Great Wheel.

To touch on another point, Psion, perhaps one reason that planar adventure is seen as more suitable for high-level characters is that the magic required to access the planes without recourse to magic portals or magic items is fairly high level. IIRC ethereal jaunt is a 7th-level spell and astral projection 9th-level - to some GMs this means the only way the characters can experience the other planes at lower levels is by deus ex porta, and once the adventurers arrive, they are at the mercy of whatever portals the GM chooses to create. Generally speaking I prefer to put those choices in the hands of the players through the use of their own abilities rather than depending on GM contrivance.

There's also the idea (at least in my game-world) that portals to other worlds tend to attract powerful guardians, powerful predators, or both (perhaps one on each side!). The guardians and predators must be powerful if they are to survive encountering the sorts of creatures that may come through the portal - in any case low-level adventurers simply aren't up to the task in most cases.

Now none of this is graven in stone - one could postulate that 1st-level characters pass through a portal that leads to a sort of 'transportation hub' with portals leading to a variety of different planes, all hospitable and with a range of challenges suitable to the level of the characters. The fact is, only a small number of GMs seem to be terribly excited in running this sort of game, IMX. That doesn't make it bad - it merely makes it less popular.

 

[Psion]

I don't have my DMG handy, but I seem to recall that at least some of the planes in the standard cosmology are described as infinite.

Right. But it's something you can select when you design a plane.

While I agree that it's not inherent in planar adventuring in a general way, I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) it is a conceit of the Great Wheel.

Indeed it is. But there are several ways to approach this, some of which are covered in existing planar products. Another conceit of the great wheel is that beleif shapes reality. One take on infinity on the great wheel is that if you travel into the outback of the planes, parts of the planes come into existence to satisfy your beleif that they are there.

But some people never worry about the implications of it and just play them as if they were "really big" or "yeah, there are infinite demons, but they are off occupied in infinite wars, etc."

I personally don't care for the implications and in my take on the great wheel, the most I can stomach is the above belief brings it into existence thing.

But really, is this something most people who don't like planar adventures worry about? It seems oddly specific to me, and something that really usually only pops up on planescape mailing lists or the odd planescape specific usenet posting among fans.

To touch on another point, Psion, perhaps one reason that planar adventure is seen as more suitable for high-level characters is that the magic required to access the planes without recourse to magic portals or magic items is fairly high level.

I sort of address this in one of my earlier replies to Celebrim. AFAIAC, it's not the preferred starting mechanism for planar games.

to some GMs this means the only way the characters can experience the other planes at lower levels is by deus ex porta, and once the adventurers arrive, they are at the mercy of whatever portals the GM chooses to create. Generally speaking I prefer to put those choices in the hands of the players through the use of their own abilities rather than depending on GM contrivance.

But can't this be as permissive or restrictive as you want? You can give players a portal map and give them a number of known locations that they can travel to with reliable portals just as easily as you could map the adjacent nations, cities, and sites. (More easily in fact, since you don't have those pesky rules of reality in your way, and you can grant as much or as little overland travel as you want.)

I think the flexibility of portals is one of the big draws for me.

 

[Oryan77]

I've always started PC's out at 3rd lvl in my Planescape games. You could easily start them at 1st but I just didn't want to mess with 1st lvl PC's.

You don't just start a low level PC off and send them frollicking in the Abyss with the chance of encountering fiends that will end up in a TPK. You start off slow, just like you would normally in a prime game. You don't send 1st level primes to the red dragons lair....and if you do, it's to experience the lair iteself, not to encounter the dragon in a fight. Same with Planar games.

It's odd when I hear people who are obviously experienced DM's whine about their party not surviving at low levels on the planes. You can't come up with scenarios that won't kill your PC's? It's like everyone is thinking of a planar game as a hack-n-slash only game. You just have to get creative is all. Don't send PC's to the Gray Waste to fight in the Bloodwar, send them to the Gray Waste to deliver battle plans to a Platoon of fiends. The PC's could fight low level stuff on the trip and get picked on by higher lvl stuff...good roleplaying keeps you alive on the planes.

For example, start the PC's off in Sigil just to get familiar with the setting. That's easy, just do a typical city adventure but with stranger PC's. Want to introduce them to the Plane of Fire without killing them or making it too difficult to adventure there? Plop them on a citadel on the plane that's protected by fire resist spells. The Eternal Boundary 2e PS module is great, and did just that. And there was still a chance that PC's could be in danger of the citadel losing it's fire protection. Run a low lvl sailing adventure in the Plane of Water...they don't have to fight high levelled stuff, there's plenty of weak water creatures to fight. But it's certainly awsome when they do encounter a powerful native in a non combative encounter.

My party is 6th lvl and adventuring in Baator (Hell) right now. They've encoutered almost every type of Baatezu (devil) so far....they are still alive. Of course they didn't fight every one of them, but Baatezu are lawful, you can get away with them not out right slaughtering the party....devils love making deals There's been times when a PC might be a moron and think with his sword first instead of his brain....that's when you use those excellent DM'ing skills everyone here seems to have. Don't kill the player for being unfamiliar with fiendish encounters and attacking right away, instead make him crap his pants thinking he's about to die, and then weave a way for his escape. Next time he'll respect a baatezu when he encounters it and won't be so quick to fight.

As for keeping the planes mysterious & special....they are always mysterious & special even when you've adventured on them for 20 levels. Save the God encounters for higher levels, keep the gods as being myserious. I still don't throw my PC's infront of gods until they are high level. People say only high level players should be on the planes. Why? Powerful creatures still need to get things done like the rest of them. All of their henchmen/assistants are all powerful too? There's weak creatures on the planes doing work for their masters, bosses, & idols, why can't there be weak mortals assisting too? There's still markets, cities, and taverns on the planes. Fiends & Angels like recreation like everyone else. If their lower ranks can serve them why can't mortals? Saying only high level PC's can survive on the plane makes it seem like the planes are ONLY filled with CR 20+ NPC's....how realistic is that? Someone is making cheap army gear for the Bloodwar & building homes in cities on the planes, and I'm sure it's not Pit Fiends and Deva's doing it.

 

[Celebrim]

Psion: I don't think anyone here is saying that you are wrong to play the way that you do. They are merely pointing out the likely reasons most DM's avoid planar games. You can argue however you like that with this modification or other the standard cosmology can be changed to better suit campaigning 'out there', but that doesn't alter the fact that the cosmology as it is usually present isn't conducive to campaigning.

But really, is this something most people who don't like planar adventures worry about? It seems oddly specific to me...

How many times has the issue of scale come up in this thread already? Think of it as the Star Wars problem. You've got a whole galaxy of interesting planetary cultures each of which is as complex and diverse as the real Earth. But since this is far more work than any one DM can manage, the whole of a planet ends up getting represented as the interior of a particular bar or a particular space dock or a few acres of swamp (or whatever). Most people would rather spend thier time detailing one setting in great depth, than paint whole planes with such a broad brush. Most DM's only grab the planes as a device when they need an 'anti-setting' and the device of the otherworldly portal conveys to the character 'Don't expect everything to work just like it does in the regular setting that I've been carefully constructing'. Either that or they need a place to safely store a being of extreme danger.

Now, you don't have to use planes in that way. I'm not saying its wrong to use them in some other way. But I'm saying that my sense is that it is relatively rare that they are used in some other way.

I mean, as great and original as the Planescape setting was, it got freaking dropped. Ditto Ravenloft. If that was really the standard fare, it would have been more popular. Sure there are lots of fans of those settings, and many more who admire them even if they don't use them, but they aren't the most common way to do things - not in Eberron, not in Greyhawk, not in Krynn, not in Faerun, and not in Athas. Those settings may well feature extra-planar portals and adventures of note (Queen of the Demonweb pits, Throne of Bloodstone), but generally when they do it only helps prove my point.

More easily in fact, since you don't have those pesky rules of reality...

It's a fantasy. Do you ever have to deal with those pesky rules of reality?

 

[Oryan77]

I don't have my DMG to some GMs this means the only way the characters can experience the other planes at lower levels is by deus ex porta, and once the adventurers arrive, they are at the mercy of whatever portals the GM chooses to create. Generally speaking I prefer to put those choices in the hands of the players through the use of their own abilities rather than depending on GM contrivance.

How is a DM providing information about a portal for travel any different than a DM providing information about a ship or caravan available for PC's to hitch a ride on to another city? It's almost like saying that in a prime game, PC's need the skills to build a ship or wagon so they can travel from one city to another instead of finding a captain that owns one and just hitching a ride for a small fee.