D&D General Why do people like Alignment? (+thread)

[Lakesidefantasy]

I think alignment is useful as a quick way to understand how to play a monster or Non-Player Character. It is also useful in portraying the mood and character of a city or other organization.

For instance, the flumph. Wow, it looks weird flying around with tentacles and spikes. And, it can impale you with those spikes, and then fill the wounds with acid--ouch! But wait, it's lawful good?! I guess it would probably not attack unless defending itself.

 

[James Gasik]

I'd have to see some receipts around mechanical binding. Most alignment folks I know that like it, don't want those aspects back. I suppose OSR minded folks might for nostalgia reasons, but I'm not tuned into those folks. Are they in such a number to take notice?

Is it super often? Probably not, but I do see it from time to time- people who want mechanics in play for certain character classes to lose powers granted to them by a higher, uh, power, if they do something contrary to that entities' desires- which often comes down to alignment infractions for Clerics and Paladins.

This is a larger discussion though, since it also applies to Warlocks, who aren't usually paragons of virtue.

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I'm seeing lots of comments about reverting to "alignment as cosmic faction", which I have far less of a problem with than "alignment as ethical/moral code", but there still needs to be a reason to bother with it. For my adventurer who fights bandits and goblins in search of fortune or glory, why should I align myself to utter Law or Chaos, exactly?

Somewhat similar are settings that want players to choose patron deities, which, unless you're a Cleric (or sometimes a Druid or Paladin) does nothing for you, personally. Beyond that era in the Forgotten Realms where you were told to choose one or else suffer for eternity, of course.

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Forgive me for the segue, but this was always my issue with evil deities and those who serve them. If, in a D&D world, you know Gods are real, you can see their powers manifest by Clerics, and you know darned well that Asmodeus makes him home in a literal Hell, why would any sane person choose to worship an evil god?

I would think that, were an afterlife confirmed to exist, you'd want to make sure you got into one of the good ones...

 

[Celebrim]

Forgive me for the segue, but this was always my issue with evil deities and those who serve them. If, in a D&D world, you know Gods are real, you can see their powers manifest by Clerics, and you know darned well that Asmodeus makes him home in a literal Hell, why would any sane person choose to worship an evil god?

I would think that, were an afterlife confirmed to exist, you'd want to make sure you got into one of the good ones...

I think that Green Ronin's "Book of the Righteous" does a pretty good job of dealing with this question.

I could also address this question in the terms of my campaign, which is truly polytheistic and not henotheism as is typically seen in D&D. Most characters in my campaign world are not ONLY worshiping an evil god but worshiping an evil god corporately as part of their overall belief system. They typically wouldn't see worshiping an evil god as wrong, because most of the population - humans especially - are neutral and see everything of terms utilitarian survival. It's either of matter of wanting to propitiate and appease an evil deity so that he doesn't get offended at you and do the evil things to you, or else it's a matter of perceiving evil deities as more available as brokers of power who may charge more highly but are less picky about who they deal with what they give and especially who pay up more readily and quicker than the more judgmental good gods. From the perspective of a neutral actor in the world, they don't really see the good gods as necessarily better than the bad gods. What's really important is what they demand of you and how likely are they to reward or punish you. It's not like good gods won't smite you, or bad gods won't give you something you want. It's about how you are expected to make them happy in order to avoid the smiting and get favors.

I would think that, were an afterlife confirmed to exist, you'd want to make sure you got into one of the good ones...

You might first think that, but that not how I think people actually think. People are terrible at long term planning and really good at rationalizing their own acts. And they are really good at romanticizing their ability to endure future or hypothetical suffering and really good at deceiving themselves to believe that if things get hard they will suddenly find reserves of power and will that they aren't exercising at the present. They almost always look at a problem and say, "Well, I'd be the one that would beat the odds."

 

[James Gasik]

You might first think that, but that not how I think people actually think. People are terrible at long term planning and really good at rationalizing their own acts. And they are really good at romanticizing their ability to endure future or hypothetical suffering and really good at deceiving themselves to believe that if things get hard they will suddenly find reserves of power and will that they aren't exercising at the present. They almost always look at a problem and say, "Well, I'd be the one that would beat the odds."

I guess I can accept that. I just know that if tomorrow, scientists announced they had empirical proof that there is an afterlife, but to get there, you have to swear off playing Dungeons & Dragons, I'd seriously have to consider the merit of my favorite hobby!

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Given that, fundamentally, it is designed to be a violence game, having at least some enemies be readily identifiable as inescapably evil by nature cuts down on the number of moral conundra we need to explore. I don't dislike exploring moral conundra, I just prefer that some encounters be straightforward good kills evil affairs.

Forgive me for the segue, but this was always my issue with evil deities and those who serve them. If, in a D&D world, you know Gods are real, you can see their powers manifest by Clerics, and you know darned well that Asmodeus makes him home in a literal Hell, why would any sane person choose to worship an evil god?

I would think that, were an afterlife confirmed to exist, you'd want to make sure you got into one of the good ones...

Because soon all the gods will bow before Lady Tiamat, and when they are cast down from Olympus worshipers of the true goddess will receive their proper rewards!

Which explains evil cults. As for why anyone worships an evil god who isn't pitching a narrative of imminent conquest of the multiverse, well that's usually a matter of bad writing.

 

[el-remmen]

I also wanted to add that the notion of “muscular neutrality” works better in my opinion when the axis is law/chaos rather than good/evil.

 

[Celebrim]

Which explains evil cults. As for why anyone worships an evil god who isn't pitching a narrative of imminent conquest of the multiverse, well that's usually a matter of bad writing.

It doesn't even have to be remotely imminent. Assuming that you can grasp infinity, then all you have to teach is, "We will inevitably win in a finite amount of time." For example, an evil cult might say, "Eventually nonexistence will triumph over existence. The heat death of the universe is real. We can guarantee you non-existence on your own terms, as either someone who obtains a painless as possible non-existence as early as you desire if you are rationally tired of all this crap, or as someone who is among the last to live in any sort of comfort while all the rest of them are writhing as insane ghosts, gnawing on themselves for sensation in a futile attempt to feel something.

Imagine that the eventual afterlife of everyone was souls have no gravity and when they die they just float off the earth to be left alone eternally in the void of space, unfathomable distances away from anything, the ultimate sensory deprivation, left alone with only your thoughts, no sound, little light, change too unfathomably slow to notice, no heat, no anything for all eternity. Then someone tells you, "This is the thing the gods of good won't tell you, that even if they can manage for a thousand years or hundred thousands years to stave off the dying of the light, it's inevitable in the end. It's just the way the universe works."

 

[CreamCloud0]

I liked 3e alignment as pure descriptors and cosmic forces.

So animate dead to create undead has the evil descriptor not because it is icky, but because it is tapping into a cosmic force of evil. I leaned into this in house rules giving undead the Evil descriptor, fey the Chaos descriptor etc.

I divorced the descriptors from moral alignment and did not police PC morality but leaning into descriptors brought in cosmic force alignment in ways that D&D alignment usually does not actually achieve.

The very 3.x rules regarding some spells and alignment the OP mentions is something I miss and wrote back into my 5e homebrew rules, except only on the law vs. chaos axis (what evil and good might be is arguable) as a built in part of my setting. And I specifically wrote it being “neutral” can be the most dangerous choice (though most common people are neutral and are never in a position to get blasted by such a spell).

But yeah, I have moved away from alignment as an ethical frame and more of a cosmic alignment that people approach differently along the good/evil axis to accomplish associated goals.

these two posts touch on the biggest reasons i find alignment so enticing, DnD is kind of built on and full of these tropes about cosmic forces and various entities associated with them: gods, demons and devils, mystical creatures, sentient objects or wards that keep the unworthy from entering places, it just feels to me like the PCs should be tracking where they stand in relation to these things so they can properly interact with them on a deeper level, which gods like the cut of their jib, which creatures object to you based on the quality of your heart, weapons like excalibur and thor's hammer which are picky about who gets to use them.

plus just the general use of helping outline NPCs personalities and morals.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Forgive me for the segue, but this was always my issue with evil deities and those who serve them. If, in a D&D world, you know Gods are real, you can see their powers manifest by Clerics, and you know darned well that Asmodeus makes him home in a literal Hell, why would any sane person choose to worship an evil god?

I would think that, were an afterlife confirmed to exist, you'd want to make sure you got into one of the good ones...

i assume it's that fallacy of belief where people vote for something assuming they'll be one of the ones on top and living the high life rather than being crushed in the wheels of the system.

that and/or just seeing Good as some sort of 'con' where they'll be forced to give up their hard earned bounties to some undeserving rubes who ought to pull their finger out and put the effort in if they want to have what i've got.

 

[payn]

I'm seeing lots of comments about reverting to "alignment as cosmic faction", which I have far less of a problem with than "alignment as ethical/moral code", but there still needs to be a reason to bother with it. For my adventurer who fights bandits and goblins in search of fortune or glory, why should I align myself to utter Law or Chaos, exactly?

I guess my tastes are a little more sophisticated then simply fighting bandits and gobos for money. The motivations behind the bandits and gobos is likely a conspiracy that has far reaching implications. Though, I think thats getting more into adventure design territory. If you just want white hat and black hat gaming than alignment is just a distraction.

Forgive me for the segue, but this was always my issue with evil deities and those who serve them. If, in a D&D world, you know Gods are real, you can see their powers manifest by Clerics, and you know darned well that Asmodeus makes him home in a literal Hell, why would any sane person choose to worship an evil god?

I would think that, were an afterlife confirmed to exist, you'd want to make sure you got into one of the good ones...

I think there is far more to consider in these situations than real life religious implications. The tangible in game effects of worshiping an evil deity manifests itself in power along with providing conflict among those who do not. Its likely the belief that proper worship and proof of worthiness ensures a place by the deity's side in said bad places.