D&D General Why do people like Alignment? (+thread)

I suspect a lot of the reason alignment started to be deprecated is because of the way it can be abused to short-cut the investigation aspect of roleplaying games. "I called you all in today because... someone in this room is a murderer! incant incant incant And the only evil person here today is you, Lord Sutcliffe! You must be... the Darkmoor Killer!" If you're strict about alignment, you can't have a Neutral or Good killer except in very limited, defined circumstances. When you had "evil races" it just made it even easier, since you didn't need to detect evil to tell who was "bad" -- and there was only one way to deal with "bad guys."
 

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It seems that the approach to the game itself is a factor here. If your campaign consists of murdering monsters, invading their homes, and taking their stuff, or "wacky hijinks" or just "exploring a strange and mysterious world", alignment has no real function, and might even get in the way!

Campaigns that more closely scrutinize the characters and their interactions, with deeper roleplay, politics, or epic "saving the world" plots might end up needing a mechanic like alignment. But not necessarily!

For example, Bob is a L/G farmboy*. His village is attacked by goblins, he takes up the sword and protects it. When the local lord puts a bounty on goblins, he joins an adventuring party and engages in willful genocide, not thinking much of it, because all he's seen and heard of goblins has dehumanized them.

At some point, however, deep in a goblin warren, he comes upon a chamber of goblin children, and a matron who valiantly defends them to her final breath, despite being completely outmatched.

If the campaign is supposed to be a long, ongoing struggle against the goblinoids (ala "Red Hand of Doom"), the ensuing philosophical debate and Bob's horrified realization that goblins are people too might completely derail the proceedings entirely, unless the DM is willing to ditch their planned adventure path in order to explore these unknown waters.

I don't see any problem with DM's who make either decision- it takes a lot of effort to plan out games, let alone negotiate with the world outside the game to schedule and make time to even play them! If you bought a megadungeon or adventure path with the intent to run your players through it as far as they can go, having the game be sidetracked with questions of "are we the bad guys?" might put a spanner in the works they simply don't have the time or inclination to deal with.

OTOH, if you have the luxury, ditching the current game (or drastically changing it's scope) to suit alignment dilemmas is also perfectly cromulent.

Basically, alignment isn't for everyone, and despite that, the game has rarely taken the stance that it can be optional. Instead, it's been retained, no matter how neutered it's impact on the game is, because it's seen by many as some essential sacred cow, despite the fact that if you really like alignment, patching it into a game shouldn't be an issue whatsoever. It's often less a mechanic (in the same way AC or Dexterity are mechanics) and more of a narrative tool.

*This example veers closer to "alignment-as-morality" than "alignment-as-allegiance", but it works for both- if Bob had been devoted to Law, and saw Goblins as Chaotic, seeing that they are fundamentally similar to his own kind might seriously make him wonder if Law is truly the "right" side of the conflict.

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A big part of the problems alignment have caused over the decades is something I rarely see examined. Simply put, the design of character classes. Initially, the game was built on the bones of a wargame, where the players take on the role of "champion" units- warriors who can take on entire platoons of foes, magicians who function as portable siege units (I'm suddenly getting a flashback to the "conservatism" thread here), eventually followed by undead hunters armed with "miracles" which later fused with the Battle Bishop Odo archetype to become the heavily armored saintly Cleric we know today.

Sometimes these hero units would explore dungeons, at which point they began to be placed into roles- the Fighting Man could stand as a bulwark to protect his allies who could deal damage and heal with their magic.

The Thief came next, armed with rules for "everything else" that the early classes couldn't do (some have seen this as a terrible mistake in hindsight).

But later classes like the Paladin, Ranger, Druid, and Monk (followed by Barbarians, Cavaliers, and a whole army of classes found in the pages of Dragon Magazine)* didn't fit neatly into these roles. Well ok, the Paladin, Ranger, and Barbarian could do the Fighter's job, but they came with restrictions that meant they didn't necessarily play nice with other characters- Paladins and Thieves have an almost built-in rivalry, Barbarians distrust magicians of all stripes, etc. etc..

It seemed as if the newer classes were almost intended to create strife between characters, between proscribed and prohibited behaviors and restrictions on alignment. On paper, Joe's Paladin can replace Bob's Fighter, and Sara's Druid can replace Meg's Cleric...but in practice, the Paladin intensely dislikes interacting with "Neutrals" and the Druid is incentivized into derailing Joe's extreme L/G behavior in order to preserve the cosmic balance!

This becomes less of an issue when the game "breaks out of the dungeon", and the game explores it's third pillar more, but it remained a problem for a very long time- players were told "all these classes are available to you", but never were you instructed "don't mix Paladins and Druids". Never was it said "hey this class? It's for very specific play patterns".

So you'd have players bellying up to the table with Rangers and Assassins and while I don't know how universal it was, much of my early AD&D experience had less to do with adventuring and more to do with figuring out how not to be killed by other player characters who had built-in reasons to take me out!
 

Alignments are key for certain outsiders in my worldview. I.e. Infernal vs Celestial. An infernal must be Evil and a celestial must be Good, its inherent in what they are. An infernal who ceases to be Evil ceases to be infernal. A celestial who stopped being Good also stopped being a celestial. Same with Modrons, creatures of Law incarnate. A non-lawful Modron is not a Modron anymore.

They physically change to reflect their spiritual essence.

While Modrons are usually Lawful Neutral, I could see helpful (LG) and hateful (LE) Modrons. But if they become lawful-EVIL rather than LAWFUL-evil, they become Infernals. Likewise a devil who becomes LAWFUL-evil becomes something Modron-ish.

For PCs, its about certain extreme edge cases. Like, if a celestial appears do you feel their aura as a warm glow or blinding glare? Is a demon's aura a nauseating stench or does it smell like your favorite dive bar?

Most people are neutral with -ish tendencies. Adventurers aren't most people. They can be GOOD or EVIL. (I rarely let people play EVIL at my tables but it has happened) A priest can be GOOD and stab a raksasha to death with a pencil, but a demonic Unholy Word will hit them like a train. The (good) fighter needs magic weapons vs a raksasha but is only deafened by the demon
 

I live in an imperfect, material world that has somehow seen fit to reward me with a naughty word philosophy degree.

I know reality isn't made up of ideas... but D&D proposes a world that is. That's fascinating.

I do not know what good is on Earth. In D&D, you can synthesize "pure good" and hold it in your hand in the same way I might have zinc or helium. Angels feed off it. The underlying physics and metaphysics of the world are so interesting, a gifted author can tell great stories with this mechanic
 

-I rely on 3e's definitions of what the alignment elements (good, evil, neutrality (GvE), law, chaos, neutrality (LvC)) and the nine alignments mean. Edition is key here. 3e's definitions are far and away the best ever published for the game. I often think that many people who don't like alignment are using the inferior definitions from other editions, so we aren't really even talking about the same thing. If Gary Gygax were still alive, I'd debate him on how 3e alignment is better than his original 1e, and I think I might have a chance of convincing him.

I think for the most part 3e did a decent job of describing alignment with the exception that the writers didn't understand or make any distinction (in alignment terms) between self-centeredness and selfish.

By that I mean the statement, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." is self-centered, in that it depends on your own values and judgments to describe what you ought to do, but it is not selfish (and is in fact benevolent) because it encourages you to actively pursue the good of others from a frame work of self-centeredness. There is in fact even a criticism (very typically lawful) levied against the "Golden Rule" that since it is self-centered it doesn't work in the mind of a madman (or an Addams) who wanting evil things for themselves then does evil to others. Thus the proposal of the lawful version ("Platinum Rule") that says the same thing but centers not on the self conscious but on a hypothetical rational or moral individual. I don't propose to judge the argument here, merely note the relevancy to understanding what AD&D/D&D means by "alignment".

Likewise, the "Silver Reed" - "Don't do unto others as you would not what them to do to you" or perhaps "Harm no one; do as you will" - is also self-centered but not selfish, but in this case is not benevolent but passive as it focuses on the good of the self. There is of course a CN argument that focusing on the good of the self is the only good you can actually do, but again I don't want to pass judgment on that just point out the relevancy to understanding what AD&D/D&D means by "alignment".

This matters because when discussing what is meant by "Evil", 3e writers too often focus on the "Self" part of "selfishness" rather than on the destructive aspect of "selfishness" as the root cause of something being "Evil" which then leads to inescapable contradiction somewhere on the alignment wheel.

I would say this is no worse than Gygax's own bias who tended at times to favor "law" to the degree of seeing "Lawful Good" as meaning "more good" and "Chaotic Evil" as meaning "more evil", which is of course also inescapable contradiction. But it's still there and I'm not sure Gygax for all his brevity doesn't define the good/evil axis better than 3e writers do.
 

I utterly, completely reject this. Been playing for more than forty years, run innumerable games, and have run the D&D Club at a high school for years where I teach beginners how to play. The vast majority of players love inventing characters and concepts and trying out new ideas and perspectives. They are excited to try different things and use their imagination.

People have a lot of capacity!

You don't have to perfectly create an entirely new perspective, personality and morality in order to create a character with a different perspective than yours.

Inhabiting a different person's perspective is a big part of why I might use alignment for my character. If I'm playing someone that's CN*, how they would approach the world gives me a starting point for how they interact with the world around them. How is it going to be different from someone who is LG? How is it different from how I view the world? It's just one aspect of a personality but it's pretty foundational to how I would approach playing them.

*I don't view CN as chaotic insane like it was presented in 2e since I have no idea why anyone would put up with someone who switched sides in the middle of combat "just to see what happens".
 

One tangent in this thread is the concept of evil gods and evil organizations. I think very few people truly believe they're evil, even many sociopathic mass murderers likely simply don't really understand why others would consider them evil. Meanwhile people that worship evil gods likely don't think very far ahead (most people don't really accept their own mortality) or think they'll be damned anyway so they may as well get something out of it.

If someone worships Orcus it's because they believe Orcus is powerful and their worship will grant them power or they feel a kinship with other worshipers. People frequently don't really consider the long term consequences of their actions, whether that's unhealthy habits like smoking or committing crimes where they are likely to be caught and punished.
 

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