Why do so many people hate Voyager?

[Umbran]

Kirk only defeated the doomsday weapon because another ship captain sacrificed his life in an assist. The Squire of Gothos was overcome by other powerful alien beings. The Olympian gods were overcome by discovering their secret, and matching their power.

Actually, in The Doomsday Weapon, the only assistance Captain Decker lent was to suicide in such a manner that inspired Kirk. "The Squire of Gothos" shows the classic tactic of the weaker hero - when in doubt, stall for time using your wits, eventually a solution will present itself. Similarly with Adonais, with the addition that the ship was not equal in power. The god was essentially a lich - more powerful than the PCs, but with one weakness, that could only be exploited through use of courage and wit. Simple use of power would not have been sufficient.

They encountered the borg five times in TNG (if you count the movie). I'd hardly call their encounters a ringing success.

Who needs them to be "ringing successes"? Against the Borg, mere survival is supposed to be a ringing success. Yes, often there's a price to be paid - Wolf 359 and in First Contact, lives are lost. Even Homeric heros sometimes lose compartiots and crew.

No, the small human crew is able to get support from one of the military superpowers in the universe (the Minbari), and virtually every nonaligned world in the setting. They form the "largest fleet in history". I'd hardly call that beating their enemy from an inferior position.

Um, except for the fact that that "largest fleet in history" was insufficient to the task. If you'll think back, you'll remember that said fleet was getting pasted - the Shadow War wasn't won by force of arms, but by having the wit to notice what the actual conflict was, and having the courage to tell both the Shadows and Vorlons to shove off.

Earth is taken on with Minbari help, Psi Corps isn't an enemy of the Babylon 5 characters until Season 5, Bester was actually allied with them through Season 4, and by the time Season 5 rolls around, Sheridan is the ISA President, hardly dealing from a position of weakness.

Actually, the battle against Earth forces is won specifcally without Minbari (or any alien) help. Before the final confrontation, Sheriden sends the aliens to the rear. If you think Bester and Psi Corps weren't a threat, you don't understand them very well. Allies? Yeah, right. We always brainwash our allies friends and use them to capture allied leaders! And, in season 5, being president doesn't seem to protect Sheriden's organization from threat of Byron's telepaths.

In many cases, there is plausible help for the outmatched, or the villans had agendas that precluded using their full force on the heroes ...
There was very little justification in Voyager for that, which is what made the storylines implausible.

Yep. That's the staple tactic again - delay until youcan find the enemy's weakness. Of course the weak hero doesn't take the full force of his enemy. If that happens, the hero dies and you don't have much of a show. Instead, the hero delays, uses wit and courage to hold on until the right solution is found, grits his teeth and does it.

Actually, generally in Voyager the justification is there, but it isn't a good one, or it is poorly presented. That's exactly my point. The problem isn't the situations themselves, as virtually every other sci-fi show has similar situations. The problem is how they are presented. Nobody minds that the Suire of Gothos was beaten by deus ex machina. The episode is fun. In B5, nobody minds that the actual conflict is inanely simplistic (and the Vorlons and Shadows both end up looking like spoiled children) - the writers spend entire seasons building up the story and final justifications.

We accept the implausible because it is well done implausibility. We can willfully suspend our disbelief if it is done with good art and craft. This was not the case on Voyager.

 

[Tsyr]

Um, it might help to stop thinking of Voyager as "one light scout ship". The Intrepid-class starships aren't mere light scouts. They are supposed to be among "the fastest and most powerful ships in Starfleet" (quote from Startrek.com). If I recall correctly, while they weren't designed specifically to fight the borg like the Defiant, they were designed with the borg threat in mind. Don't let it's size fool you, it's supposed to be a powerhouse.

The official status of the Intrepid class is a "light explorer".It lacks any quant torpedos, has a normal payload of a mere 38 photon torpedos, and thirteen phaser banks. While this gives it more phaser power than many cruiser-class ships, its lack of ANY advanced torpedo systems (Neither pulse-fired nor quant) is a weakness in the "current era" of star trek technology. Despite this, however, its mass and crew compliment are less than half of the smallest vessel in the Explorer or Heavy Cruiser designations. The ships that are designated light- or medium- cruisers are science vessels, scout ships, etc.

Really, the Intrepid is kinda a bastard design... It doesn't exactly fit any established list. It's too heavily armed to be a normal scout, lacks the specific systems to be a designated science vessel, has no specific systems that would designated it a "tactical" vessel, has too little mass or crew to be considered a heavy cruiser, and lacks the firepower to be considered a destroyer class.

*shrug*

 

[Umbran]

The official status of the Intrepid class is a "light explorer".

"Official" by whose say? Trek continuity being what it is, it makes a big difference. As noted, my quote comes from Startrek.com. Where's yours from?

Now, for Big Geekishness!

Of course Voyager doesn't have quantum torpedoes. They were developed in the late 2360's. Voyager was launched in 2371, and got lost in that same year, IIRC. The Defiant was one of the first ships to carry the things, and it was assigned to DS9 in... 2371. You don't load uncommon weapons on a ship that's not going to war.

IIRC, at one point in the series, the Voyager runs into an experimental Federation "dreadnaught". Chakotay mentiones that it'd be easy to scavange the quantum torpedoes. Suggesting that it's the torpedo itself, and not the firing mechanism, that's important - that doesn't indicate a lack of power in the ship itself.

All in all, it's important to take the word "powerful" in context of time. It may well have been one of the tougher pieces of hardware onteh block in 2371. Don't go comparing it to the Enterprise E, for example, which may be of similar size, but was launched after the Federation had gone through the Dominion War - and it's attendant gains in technology.

 

[Tsyr]

My bad, can't believe I missed the oversight about the dates...

The biggest thing that puzzles me about WHAT voyager is supposed to be is its size. It's dinky. And it's torpedo payload is MINISCULE... 38? Off the top of my head, the Galaxey glass (Which was designed to be an exploration ship, really... it sorta got drafted into the roll of battleship, but that wasn't it's original conception) had nearly 300. 38 would get depleated in one good battle, meaning it's basicly useless in any sort of remote function. Maybe station a couple of them as defense for a station, or a planet near to hostilities, but...

 

[LightPhoenix]

Sisko held off the Founders and the Pah Wraiths...

Sisko didn't beat the Founders alone. The last military encounter (against the Cardassians) involved the Klingons, Federation, and Romulans. Also, the Founders were weakened by the virus introduced to them through Odo.

Which reminds me, the episode where Sisko drags the Romulans into the fight was incredible.

This goes on to other genre shows - on B5, a small human crew is responsible for beating the Shadows (and the Vorlons, actually), the Psi Corps, and their own government - all superior forces.

They didn't beat the Shadows and Vorlons. Just like Earth didn't beat the Minbari.

They didn't beat the Psi Corps. Lyta started the movement against them, and in the end they were reworked to... gah, I forget the name of the organization.

They did win the civil war, keeping in mind they had the White Star fleet (Vorlon and Minbari) and several Human allies. They most certainly did not do it alone.

 

[Umbran]

Sisko didn't beat the Founders alone. The last military encounter (against the Cardassians) involved the Klingons, Federation, and Romulans. Also, the Founders were weakened by the virus introduced to them through Odo.

Which reminds me, the episode where Sisko drags the Romulans into the fight was incredible.

Yes. So, who was responsible for having the Klingons, and Romulans there? IIRC, who wrangled with the Cardassians so well to drinve one of them to the brink of madness, let loose a Pah Wriath, and get the wormhole closed, cutting off the Alpha Quadrant Founders from home?

How many events did that war pivot on that didn't directly invovle Sisko and his crew? Wins in story arcs are often not single events, but chains of events.

They didn't beat the Psi Corps. Lyta started the movement against them, and in the end they were reworked to... gah, I forget the name of the organization.

Lyta did not start the movement. She inherited it from Byron (who didn't start it either, resistance to the Psi Corps is as old as the Corps - go read the Psi Corp trilogy by J. Gregory Keyes, based on an outline by JMS, it's good stuff!)

She (effectivley part of sheriden's crew, a main character) inherits the movement, because Sheriden had the audacity to allow the telepath colony. And who does Lyta eventually get the power to defeat the Psi Corps from? Garibaldi! The ground troops in that fight may not have been the main characters, but the setup was all them

 

[Ranger REG]

"Official" by whose say? Trek continuity being what it is, it makes a big difference. As noted, my quote comes from Startrek.com. Where's yours from?

"Light Explorer"? I do know it came from the Last Unicorn Games' Star Trek RPG.

You can dispute it, but you have to remember, Paramount was paying close attention to all licensed material. LUG has to have their material approved before it can go to print.

Personally, I do not have Decipher's Star Trek RPG so I don't know if they kept that designation (especially when almost all of the former LUG staff are now Decipher RPG Studio).

BTW, what part of the StarTrek.com web site did it specifically mentioned that the Intrepid-class starship is a scout ship?

 

[Eternalknight]

Going off the Official Start Trek Fact Files, Voyager was, at the time of its launch, the most advanced research and exploraton vessel in the fleet. It was also designed with the Borg in mind. It had great manuverabiltiy. It had a crew capacity of 150.

I agree they had to do something with the Borg and introduce a new threat. For me, the Borg were already getting stale after First Contact. Voyager also introduced the Federation Timeships, which I think Enterprise has latched on to in a way. In my opinion, I think lerning about the 21st century is a Good Thing.

 

[Storm Raven]

She (effectivley part of sheriden's crew, a main character) inherits the movement, because Sheriden had the audacity to allow the telepath colony. And who does Lyta eventually get the power to defeat the Psi Corps from? Garibaldi! The ground troops in that fight may not have been the main characters, but the setup was all them

Yeah, the fact that the Vorlons genetically altered her into a telepathic nuclear weapon was of no consequence.

 

[Umbran]

"Light Explorer"? I do know it came from the Last Unicorn Games' Star Trek RPG.

You can dispute it, but you have to remember, Paramount was paying close attention to all licensed material. LUG has to have their material approved before it can go to print.

*shrug*. Well, even the "tech manual" line of books has been seen to have a great number of inconsistencies with what's actually seen in the show. It's hard to figure what's "acurate" for the Star Trek universe. Given Universal's lack of commitment to developing a solid body of canon information, I suppose RPG data is about as reliable as web-site data designed for only moderately geeky folks.

BTW, what part of the StarTrek.com web site did it specifically mentioned that the Intrepid-class starship is a scout ship?

My point is that it doesn't call it a scout ship, light or otherwise. They call it "one of the most powerful ships in starfleet".

Eternal Knight:
Um, where are those "official fact files"? Because they also conflict with the Startrek.com take on the Voyager (same link as before). They say it has a crew capacity of 200. They quote the show in mentioning that at one point her crew dropped to 152, and Chakotay was a bit concerned, as they probalby couldn't run the ship with fewer than 100. I vaguely remember seeing that in an episode.

Btw, does anyone else likethe irony of taking a "Voyager hate" thread and turning it into a "Voyager geek" thread?