Why do undead have poor Fort/good Will?

[Kerrick]

Mace of Disruption uses a Will save (only DC 14) shouldn't that be more appropriate to use Fort instead ?

Hmm... save vs. destruction. Sounds like Fort to me. Problem is, with a low Fort save, it would be a lot more powerful. Course, that might not be a bad thing... just up the market bonus to, say, +3. DC 14 isn't exactly impossible to make. (Incidentally, the reason it's Will and not Fort, IMO, is because of that clause about undead being immune to Fort-save effects that don't affect objects. An object can't be disrupted, ergo - Will save.)

If you'd like UD turning to rely on a save from the UD, why not make it Will? Resisting a turning attempt with a Will save makes intuitive sense.

Well you know, that was the first thing I tried when I set about trying to make a variant turning mechanic, but the monster's rolls (i.e., the numbers they needed to save) were just way too low. Would you like to see the Excel sheet I made? It also proves that a Fort save works better.

I'd say it's pretty clear why UD have lousy Fort saves. What, pray tell, is a ghost's "physical stamina"?

Incoropreal undead are weird cases, I'll grant. For some reason, they have to have TR to keep up with the other undead (check the MM - they all have it). But really, there aren't that many incorporeal undead, compared to the total number of undead out there. As for corporeal undead, I'd say they have a huge amount of physical stamina, as I already pointed out in my first post - they're immune pain, poison, disease, massive injuries, etc. etc.

 

[Shin Okada]

I think Undeads are not "physically tough". Rather, they just don't suffer much from physical trauma because physical bodies are not the real base of their existence. Even for corporeal undeads, their unlife is based on soul and negative energy which are animating the mass of physical matereals. It is my take.

 

[Kerrick]

think Undeads are not "physically tough". Rather, they just don't suffer much from physical trauma because physical bodies are not the real base of their existence. Even for corporeal undeads, their unlife is based on soul and negative energy which are animating the mass of physical matereals. It is my take.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Thanks for making it a little clearer.

What do you all think of giving them all poor saves, like constructs? They have many of the same immunities anyway; since no one but me wants to give them a high Fort save, why not just drop the Will save to poor too? Would this work, or would it just be an exercise in futility?

 

[Nail]

Well you know, that was the first thing I tried when I set about trying to make a variant turning mechanic, but the monster's rolls (i.e., the numbers they needed to save) were just way too low. Would you like to see the Excel sheet I made? It also proves that a Fort save works better.

Do you mean "UD succeed too often" or "UD don't succeed often enough"? Please clarify.

I've also played with this, and found that so long as you include the UD's "turn resistance" in the Will save, it works fine. Moreover, it keeps turning UD viable at high levels.

I too have an XCL spreadsheet of the set-up.

 

[Nail]

What do you all think of giving them all poor saves, like constructs? They have many of the same immunities anyway; since no one but me wants to give them a high Fort save, why not just drop the Will save to poor too? Would this work, or would it just be an exercise in futility?

Actually, I think UD should be affected by [Mind-affecting] spells, so you're probably talkin' to th' wrong guy.....

 

[Egodefluo]

The most interesting are the ravages from the book of exalted deeds. They specifically force undead to make a fort save AND cause ability damage (which they're immune to as well). With the touch of golden ice feat, one could be making undead take a DC 14 fort save on every hit. Many 20 HD UD have only a +4 or +5 to fort saves to take 1d6+che bonus+1 dex damage.

 

[Klaus]

Undead has "-" Con, which means they are *immune* to all Fort-based spells, unless those spells specify that the affect objects. Ergo, good Fort = waste.