D&D General why do we not have an arcane half caster?

[doctorbadwolf]

I agree with the OP, which is why I’m building a 5e Swordmage, who gets ritual casting, and Monk-style resource management with a set of Esoteric Techniques, ranging from maneuver style moves that are barely magical, to spells, and who learns both ritual spells and Esoteric Techniques like a Wizard.

They’re main big hook is the ability to absorb elemental damage as a reaction from level 1, and spend Aether to send that damage either through their weapon, or directly back out at an enemy. In this way, they can convert mana into defense and damage, but in a way that is very different from a Paladin.

They also don’t use armor, and get +1 AC when they fight with a hand free, or wielding a spellcasting focus in their offhand, and their AC is 13+Int mod, ensuring they can be dex or strength based on their martial prowess.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The problem we have always had with the idea of an arcane half-caster is that no one (even people who have tried creating their own) has been able to come up with the most important part of the class-- its story.

Well this just isn’t true at all. We’ve done so pretty much every time.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

We do have some archtypes that we can hang on for fighter/wizards.

D&D has forever referenced itself with the elf fighter/wizard and the githyanki gish. Both strongly tie to the "Swordmage" with a sword in one hand, dressed in armor as they toss magic missiles or fireballs from the other. They use overt combat attack (and defense) and martial skill - magic with heavy leaning on the martial side. This self reference is HUGE in of itself, and enough to base the entire class simply on this.

Gandalf, at times could be seen as a fighter/wizard, leaning heavily on the wizard side of the equation with Glamdring in hand.

Jedi are clearly fighter/wizards and Star Wars has as much fantasy slant as it does sci-fi. It would be easy enough to incorporate the "warrior monk" nature of Jedi into D&D without blinking an eye.

Many of the Hong Kong wuxia films have fighter/wizards aplenty, though their magical skills are often more subdued or "personal enhancement" effects.

There doesn't need to be one unifying vision of what a fighter/mage mix needs to be - you need enough of a skeleton to hang a frame on it, and then let the subclasses do the major lifting.

Thus my swordmage, with their ability to seek out other practitioners and learn their techniques, or spend time training to develop a new technique, acting as the traveling sword-masters of Europe and East Asia, but especially the hermetic swordmasters who mixed alchemical/hermetic knowledge with knowledge of the sword and knowledge of body mechanics.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

But it's never stuck. Not once.

Swordmage was wildly popular, and is only not in 5e PHB because of the edition war, and now can’t be put in by wotc because too many subclasses come too close to what it would do.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The story from this appears to be "a warrior who cast spells".

That is literally more of a story than at least 3 of the core 4 base classes.

 

[Khozma]

The focus on class identity in this thread seems like an overcomplication of a simple concept to me. If an arcane half-caster is supposed to represent an an integration of magic with an armed combat style, then it shouldn't need any more justification to exist than the fighter or wizard themselves do. Why, in a fantasy world where training in armed combat is common, wouldn't there be those who just simply integrate magic with armed combat?

Especially in fantasy worlds where at least up to a certain level of magic is either not rare or is accessible to those with the right resources (the vast majority of D&D worlds), it makes no sense that this approach wouldn't be more common than not among those who it is an option for, unless there were very good reasons for them not to learn it; such as in Dark Sun where arcane magic isn't a very desirable pursuit (to say the least of it!), or in Forgotten Realms where bladesinging is explicitly Elvish because humans don't live long enough for the fighting style's form of mixing martial technique and magic to even be worth the time it takes to learn (i.e., it's extraordinarily difficult and thus uncommon).

A very specific forced flavour is not only unnecessary, but would reduce the number of ways it would be used by both players and DMs. I think it would also be going against a key part of what many want in such a class, which is a fun, interesting gish that's less bound by flavour or setting specifics than the alternatives (the hexblade and paladin are fine gishes, but with very specific flavours and constraints) – overly specific classes and flavours tend to be less played, less popular, and less well integrated in most settings by most DMs as well, simply put.

You don't need an excuse to learn both martial arts and magic, since it's just an obvious, practical combination that has existed in fantasy forever. Eberron has the right idea: magic totally changes what the average war and warrior looks like. If anything, I think all this is why such classes tend not to do well, since they always have weird names, flavours, and strings attached trying to justify something simple when it doesn't need any justification more than the fighter or wizard do. Think of how many ways you can represent them in the game: why should a presumably more versatile combination of both have fewer ways you can use them instead of more?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The focus on class identity in this thread seems like an overcomplication of a simple concept to me. If an arcane half-caster is supposed to represent an an integration of magic with an armed combat style, then it shouldn't need any more justification to exist than the fighter or wizard themselves do. Why, in a fantasy world where training in armed combat is common, wouldn't there be those who just simply integrate magic with armed combat?

Especially in fantasy worlds where at least up to a certain level of magic is either not rare or is accessible to those with the right resources (the vast majority of D&D worlds), it makes no sense that this approach wouldn't be more common than not among those who it is an option for, unless there were very good reasons for them not to learn it; such as in Dark Sun where arcane magic isn't a very desirable pursuit (to say the least of it!), or in Forgotten Realms where bladesinging is explicitly Elvish because humans don't live long enough for the fighting style's form of mixing martial technique and magic to even be worth the time it takes to learn (i.e., it's extraordinarily difficult and thus uncommon).

A very specific forced flavour is not only unnecessary, but would reduce the number of ways it would be used by both players and DMs. I think it would also be going against a key part of what many want in such a class, which is a fun, interesting gish that's less bound by flavour or setting specifics than the alternatives (the hexblade and paladin are fine gishes, but with very specific flavours and constraints) – overly specific classes and flavours tend to be less played, less popular, and less well integrated in most settings by most DMs as well, simply put.

You don't need an excuse to learn both martial arts and magic, since it's just an obvious, practical combination that has existed in fantasy forever. Eberron has the right idea: magic totally changes what the average war and warrior looks like. If anything, I think all this is why such classes tend not to do well, since they always have weird names, flavours, and strings attached trying to justify something simple when it doesn't need any justification more than the fighter or wizard do. Think of how many ways you can represent them in the game: why should a presumably more versatile combination of both have fewer ways you can use them instead of more?

Yep. My Swordmage is a person who is trained in a tradition that synthesizes magic, martial prowess, and alchemical/scientific knowledge, into a coherent school of thought. They aren’t part fighter and part Wizard, they don’t even have spell slots, they have renamed Ki.

The story is “sword master in a magical world where schools like the Spanish Magical Circle are actually magical.”

 

[Scribe]

Swordmage was wildly popular, and is only not in 5e PHB because of the edition war, and now can’t be put in by wotc because too many subclasses come too close to what it would do.

I've found this myself playing around with this archetype.

I'm not sure if I would prefer this as a single class, or the multiple variation on a single concept.

I think I lean towards the latter.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It occurs to me, we should discuss what the least invasive way to add the gish proper to 5e is, which is probably new spells.

If they are Abjuration and evocation, they serve the EK and Bladesinger, but leave out the AT.

I played with a really mean AT who had Mage Slayer and Sentinel, and would stick to casters like deadly glue, and more than once killed a caster by Absorb Elements and a reaction attack from the mage casting a close range “get away spell” or a fireball or whatever while the AT was stealthed right behind them.

• Elemental weapon attack spells and melee defense spells
• Marking mechanic spells
• Offensive teleportation
• Lightning rod style stuff where you call lightning onto a weapon as you strike with it
• Throw weapon and it explodes and then reforms in your hand
• Throw weapon and it flies in a wide arc, hitting extra ppl per spell slot used, then returns to your hand
• Cantrip that primes target for extra elemental damage
• Reaction cantrip that gives offense boost on next attack, or defense+utility
• Optional fighting style that lets you change damage types with cantrips and weapon attacks

 

[Scribe]

It occurs to me, we should discuss what the least invasive way to add the gish proper to 5e is, which is probably new spells.

If they are Abjuration and evocation, they serve the EK and Bladesinger, but leave out the AT.

I played with a really mean AT who had Mage Slayer and Sentinel, and would stick to casters like deadly glue, and more than once killed a caster by Absorb Elements and a reaction attack from the mage casting a close range “get away spell” or a fireball or whatever while the AT was stealthed right behind them.

• Elemental weapon attack spells and melee defense spells
• Marking mechanic spells
• Offensive teleportation
• Lightning rod style stuff where you call lightning onto a weapon as you strike with it
• Throw weapon and it explodes and then reforms in your hand
• Throw weapon and it flies in a wide arc, hitting extra ppl per spell slot used, then returns to your hand
• Cantrip that primes target for extra elemental damage
• Reaction cantrip that gives offense boost on next attack, or defense+utility
• Optional fighting style that lets you change damage types with cantrips and weapon attacks

I think it depends on what folks are not getting out of the current melee/caster hybrids.

Like what specifically is being solved for that cannot be covered?