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D&D General why do we not have an arcane half caster?

I think that's a matter of perception. I see the sorcerer as an alternative to the wizard for players who want that alternative. The similarities in the spells doesn't bother me because the distinctions are made in other ways, and that's not different than the similarities with a fighter and barbarian.

We still end up with hex blades demonstrating that smite spells and smiting didn't step on paladin toes because the other differences are important. Just name sure there are other differences.



Rangers left lore behind in energy edition.

Most groups still use primal as an energy source, the n my experience. It's pretty cosmetic.
most groups do not use primal in my experience as they literally do not know what it is as they got told to never think about 4e.
 

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TwoSix

Unserious gamer
Supporter
All ribbing of the poor Ranger aside, I feel like DnD lost some depth to its magic and lore by leaving Primal as a power source in 4e. It had such an amazing backstory that integrated perfectly into the creation of its world...
I was joking, but I'm also wondering if the fact that Ranger is so hard to pin down and AHC is so hard to define are related issues. They both point to this idea of the broadly competent, knowledgeable hero that's one side of the generic fantasy protagonist.
 

I was joking, but I'm also wondering if the fact that Ranger is so hard to pin down and AHC is so hard to define are related issues. They both point to this idea of the broadly competent, knowledgeable hero that's one side of the generic fantasy protagonist.
an astute observation part of what we would have to do is make the generic fantasy protagonist into something with bite.
 



doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
they might share individual spells as there are only so many ways to do something but they would certainly end up with their own spells.
Right. There’s no need for 6 Fireballs, Fireball does its job really well. But yeah rangers could reasonably stand to have more spells of their own.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I was joking, but I'm also wondering if the fact that Ranger is so hard to pin down and AHC is so hard to define are related issues. They both point to this idea of the broadly competent, knowledgeable hero that's one side of the generic fantasy protagonist.
It's really a D&D problem. The issue is all advanced technology in D&D is arcane magic. So development on new weapon spells would be up to wizards (and if your world has them artificers). EKs and ATs are outright taught by wizards.

But for some reason rangers and AHCs don't design magic themselves nor pay others to.

This isn't a problem in other games like MMOs and CRPGs as their rangers and AHCs have eplosive arrows, freezing traps, and lightning swords with few hiccups.

designed their own spells. They’ve no need of wizards, nor does the fighters “fighter buddy”.

The issue is D&D has the martials play dumb. Rangers and fighters are often part of military organizations but none of the budget goes to R&D.
 

It's really a D&D problem. The issue is all advanced technology in D&D is arcane magic. So development on new weapon spells would be up to wizards (and if your world has them artificers). EKs and ATs are outright taught by wizards.

But for some reason rangers and AHCs don't design magic themselves nor pay others to.

This isn't a problem in other games like MMOs and CRPGs as their rangers and AHCs have eplosive arrows, freezing traps, and lightning swords with few hiccups.



The issue is D&D has the martials play dumb. Rangers and fighters are often part of military organizations but none of the budget goes to R&D.
yeah not having all tech improvements be spells is a thing I need to add to the lets-workshop-some-setting-elements thread.
rangers are difficult as it feels like it is trying to be three things at the same time.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
It's really a D&D problem. The issue is all advanced technology in D&D is arcane magic. So development on new weapon spells would be up to wizards (and if your world has them artificers). EKs and ATs are outright taught by wizards.

But for some reason rangers and AHCs don't design magic themselves nor pay others to.

This isn't a problem in other games like MMOs and CRPGs as their rangers and AHCs have eplosive arrows, freezing traps, and lightning swords with few hiccups.



The issue is D&D has the martials play dumb. Rangers and fighters are often part of military organizations but none of the budget goes to R&D.
It seems like you’re taking your own assumptions and trying to make them general. None of that is true in, say, Eberron. (Well except the part about magic being tech) Nor is it necessarily true in FR.

A lot of spell dev will be wizards, sure. But I rather doubt Ensaring Strike was thought up by a Wizard.

And Eldritch Knights are...smart. 🤷‍♂️
Like their secondary stat is Int. I’ve never seen one played as anything less than very smart, and I’ve never seen one played as though they were a fighter who a Wizard came and taught some spells to.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
It seems like you’re taking your own assumptions and trying to make them general. None of that is true in, say, Eberron. (Well except the part about magic being tech) Nor is it necessarily true in FR.

A lot of spell dev will be wizards, sure. But I rather doubt Ensaring Strike was thought up by a Wizard.

And Eldritch Knights are...smart. 🤷‍♂️
Like their secondary stat is Int. I’ve never seen one played as anything less than very smart, and I’ve never seen one played as though they were a fighter who a Wizard came and taught some spells to.
I'm not saying it makes sense.

I'm saying their should be more ranger, sorcerer, EK, AT, and AHC "unique" spells. But D&D not only makes wizards develop 90% of arcane spells regardless of how smart or ambitious other classes might be, D&D also makes them too stupid to hire wizards either.

It makes more sense that Rnagerwould be part arificers who craft potions to heal and use divination/conjuration to track and capture. But the ranger spell list is mostly druid spells.

Same with an EK. Abjuration makes sense but as 1/3 casters, their evocation damage lags behind threats's HP. Transmutation buffs make more sense.

One of the reasons why people like Eberron is it doesn't keep some of the illogical tropes just to have them. Things follow their logical evolution if you have enough spellcasters cooperating. In FR, all the rangers invented 5 spells and said "Welp hat's enough spells for us. Where's the druids." And the fighters never thought "stone and bark is cool. But what about ironskin. Or Goldskin."
 



doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Same with an EK. Abjuration makes sense but as 1/3 casters, their evocation damage lags behind threats's HP. Transmutation buffs make more sense.
This also bugs me, because...not really. Scorching Ray doesn’t do less damage than a couple weapon attacks, especially when the EK can follow it up with a greatsword or heavy crossbow attack as a bonus action.

I allow my EK players to pick from the ranger spell list or the full Wizard list instead if they want, because it has more gish spells, but evocation spells work fine.
 


Ashrym

Hero
most groups do not use primal in my experience as they literally do not know what it is as they got told to never think about 4e.

Then I'll step up and tell them to try 4e out for themselves to see what the think of it. It wasn't exactly my favorite edition but there were things I liked about it.

"No, because 4e" isn't much of an argument against any mechanic. ;-)

The point is, however, that I can say I draw my magic from the power of Chuck Norris's beard and it wouldn't change anything.

Fluff is whatever players make if it, and arcane vs divine is pretty much just that.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Okay. Got it.

On the other hand, being able to switch elements pretty much avoids this, and it’s thematic as hell.
That's only half the equation though. There is a cost involved with having extra spells/can trips known/prepared in order to be able to switch elements" while 5e largely ignores that for casters other than warlock aside from the deliberately overturned forced choice spells dubbed iconic
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
That is an incredible leap. It’s not reasonable to ask others to follow it.
Not a big leap.
There are less than 10 unique ranger spells and only one created after the PHB. And there are fewnew arcane weapon spells and almost no new arcane armor spells for partial warrior arcanists to use.

If some were to lookat the nondivine spells officially printed in 5e, it would not e crazy to think the full casters designed 99% of them as they fit the playstyle of full casters more.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Not a big leap.
There are less than 10 unique ranger spells and only one created after the PHB. And there are fewnew arcane weapon spells and almost no new arcane armor spells for partial warrior arcanists to use.

If some were to lookat the nondivine spells officially printed in 5e, it would not e crazy to think the full casters designed 99% of them as they fit the playstyle of full casters more.
Or, we get more spells for the classes that have the highest number of spells known/prepared, and are most focused on casting, because that’s good for the playability.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
That's only half the equation though. There is a cost involved with having extra spells/can trips known/prepared in order to be able to switch elements" while 5e largely ignores that for casters other than warlock aside from the deliberately overturned forced choice spells dubbed iconic
That doesn’t especially matter. A class whose cool thing is a small damage buff and a bigger versatility buff in the form of choosing their damage type isn’t going to break the game.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Or, we get more spells for the classes that have the highest number of spells known/prepared, and are most focused on casting, because that’s good for the playability.
one thing doesn't exclude the others.

You can give wizards and clerics a lot of spells AND throw other spellcasters more spells.
You'd have to in order to make a decent AHC.
 

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