D&D 5E Why do you use Floating ASI's (other than power gaming)? [+]

[Baron Opal II]

I'm looking for something objective here. This is similar to a lot of thing things which are non-answers in this thread.

Actually effective, is anything above 50%.

Feeling effective? Is a personal evaluation.

Then I would direct you to post #217.

 

[ad_hoc]

If by "optimized" you mean "is the very best possible version of their class"? then that's not the only use. It allows you to make viable characters without needing to pick the right race.

Because for some players, not having a 16 means they'll feel ineffective. You can argue math all you want, but they feel how they feel and telling them they shouldn't feel that way is both pointless and kind of rude, since telling people how to have fun is dismissing their own perception of fun.

And while that may or may not be a big plus to floating ASIs, it's a positive and the theoretical downside (people will just forget all the tropes and play short, bearded, surly, elves) simply does not manifest. That's why I favor it.

People are allowed to feel that way. People are allowed to power game.

People aren't saying they're not. What they are saying is that it is power gaming.

If you feel that it isn't an option to play the game with your highest stat a 15 then you are a power gamer.

 

[Scribe]

Then I would direct you to post #217.

The post where you indicated things 'feel' correct? It wouldn't feel correct at 5% + or - ?

 

[Vaalingrade]

There you go:
Weapon, +1

You mean the magic weapon that's optional for the DM to offer and impossible (somehow) for me to buy?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

You mean the magic weapon that's optional for the DM to offer and impossible (somehow) for me to buy?

Yes. You said it is impossible to get the bonus otherwise. It isn't. And GM doesn't need to let you get it, but GM doesn't technically need to allow anything, so that's besides the point.

 

[jmartkdr2]

People are allowed to feel that way. People are allowed to power game.

People aren't saying they're not. What they are saying is that it is power gaming.

If you feel that it isn't an option to play the game with your highest stat a 15 then you are a power gamer.

Sure, but I would really like it if people would stop telling me not to do that because I should be roleplaying, and you can't care about numbers at all and roleplay, obviously.

 

[Baron Opal II]

The post where you indicated things 'feel' correct? It wouldn't feel correct at 5% + or - ?

Considering I mentioned a range of +6 to +8, I'm sure it would.

+4 or +10, maybe not at those levels.

+2 or +12, I would say not for your main focus. You would either consistently fail or eclipse your team.

If you are looking for a pronouncement of inescapable fact handed down from on high that +7 is the One True Bonus at level 8, I don't have that. What I do have is the observation of how the bonuses accrue. In 5e it seems to be Attribute + Proficiency which proceed in a predictable manner. At a particular range of the game which IIRC has been chosen as most enjoyable, you have roughly 70% chance of success in common tasks and 40% with the hard tasks. Given how crappy people are at estimating probabilities and that we remember failures more than successes, those percentages track well with how results feel.

D&D is a social game where how people feel about results and their character's capabilities are important. The sooner you reach the "sweet spot" probabilistically the more content people will be with their characters and the easier adventures are to design by the DM. The probabilities will change slowly from that point unless a power or item is used, and then just for that encounter. If you take the ASI at 4th level and a feat at 8th, whatever your bonus is at 1st level will increase by a total of +2 at 5th and then only by +1 more by the time you reach 13th level. That is a long time with little change to the base bonus.

So by starting with a high score in the prime requisite you may reach that spot sooner. Perhaps, then, things may seem easier at first, but when in that range from 5th to 12th level what matters more are the powers the character has more than the actual bonus. I do assume that the developers made some decisions as to what monsters and challenges the characters would face during those levels. I also believe that they expect a certain attribute range as a foundation for their assumptions as to character capabilities. After doing some pretty simple math, I conclude that the assumption was an 18 in the prime requisite, perhaps 20 if attributes were rolled, at 4th level after the ASI.

I have a feeling that this is what you want to hear: Is this mandatory for an enjoyable game? No. Is it required? No. Can someone design their character some other way? Sure. But, I think this is how the developers designed the game. And, thus, influences the choices that the players make and expect.

 

[CleverNickName]

Just wanted to chime in and remind everyone that the Point Buy method of ability score generation is an optional rules variant. The by-the-book, intended method of ability score generation is the 4d6 method...which makes high starting ability scores much easier.

And since ASIs are also by-the-book, with feats as the optional rules variant...well, you can maybe understand why some folks are complaining about the power curve. "Just use this optional rule but not that other optional rule" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this discussion.

 

[Scribe]

In 5e it seems to be Attribute + Proficiency which proceed in a predictable manner.

They do.

At a particular range of the game which IIRC has been chosen as most enjoyable, you have roughly 70% chance of success in common tasks and 40% with the hard tasks. Given how crappy people are at estimating probabilities and that we remember failures more than successes, those percentages track well with how results feel.

70% success is WILDLY successful.

So by starting with a high score in the prime requisite you may reach that spot sooner. Perhaps, then, things may seem easier at first, but when in that range from 5th to 12th level what matters more are the powers the character has more than the actual bonus. I do assume that the developers made some decisions as to what monsters and challenges the characters would face during those levels.

They do, and it tracks to a success rate of 65% if you start with a 16, and increase ASI throughout your leveling process.

I also believe that they expect a certain attribute range as a foundation for their assumptions as to character capabilities. After doing some pretty simple math, I conclude that the assumption was an 18 in the prime requisite, perhaps 20 if attributes were rolled, at 4th level after the ASI.

This is where I start to stumble. "A certain attribute range as foundation..." this is what I want to know.

I can do the math, I've seen it. I know what happens as we add extra attribute bonus, and I know what the game expects you to face, as designed.

The fundamental issue I have, is: What is expected to start? +1? +2? +3?

I have a feeling that this is what you want to hear: Is this mandatory for an enjoyable game? No. Is it required? No. Can someone design their character some other way? Sure. But, I think this is how the developers designed the game.

I already know the answers to most of those, the question specifically, is if Wizards was accounting for people to have a +1 or +2 in their Primary Stat, or if the expectation by Wizards themselves in encounter design is that everyone started with a 16 at least.

The by-the-book, intended method of ability score generation is the 4d6 method...which makes high starting ability scores much easier.

This is just wild to me. If the expectation is high stats, its zero wonder at all that people feel by the book 5e is too easy, for any number of reasons, but you blow the combat math right out the window at level 1.

 

[CleverNickName]

This is just wild to me. If the expectation is high stats, its zero wonder at all that people feel by the book 5e is too easy, for any number of reasons, but you blow the combat math right out the window at level 1.

Yep, it's true. The math in 5E can be pretty heavily skewed at 1st level, so I came up with house rules for character creation to smooth them out a little bit.