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Why does nobody complain about the monk?

mxyzplk

Explorer
I sort of agree with the cost of the amulet of mighty fists being too high.

I don't really, and strongly disagree with the brass knuckles form the APG, because the poor to-hit is what balances them. When they have full BAB and can enhance, then they become like a fighter that is using a weapon that does 2d10 points of base damage...
 

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Holy Bovine

First Post
I have a monk in my game and he is by far the weakest character in the party. Granted, they are only 5th level, but he is not enjoying the class right now. He can't hit anything, does crappy damage when he does hit,everything always saves against stunning fist, and he has the lowest ac in the party except for the sorceror. But he can slow fall and he can move as well as the 2nd level barbarian henchman. :confused:

The monk has wonderful flavor and I want to love it, but I find it sadly underpowered.

Reminds me of the one 3E game we played to about 16th level. Had a player in that play a single classed monk all the way from 1st. The running jokes were "I use Flurry of Blowing (missing every attack)" and "I hit and do....Monk damage!" (meaning less than 10 points, this one started at 8th level). If the player hadn't made his PC so much fun to have round th rest of the group would have killed him out of mercy. (and the guy never missed a skill check - I mean freaking never! he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn but need a history check done? nat 20!)
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
I don't really, and strongly disagree with the brass knuckles form the APG, because the poor to-hit is what balances them. When they have full BAB and can enhance, then they become like a fighter that is using a weapon that does 2d10 points of base damage...

I'm guessing you really don't have much experience with the 3.0/3.5 monk. They're really hampered by the lowered BAB, in my experience, which is why they get to use their monk level to determine their BAB from their monk levels while flurrying and calculating CMB in Pathfinder.
Getting an easier and less expensive magic bonus to hit is the main goal that monks need to reach with the amulet of mighty fists and brass knuckles. The extra magical properties, considering they still have fairly hampered critical hits, won't put them past the fighter even with the 2d10 base weapon at highest levels.
 

Kaisoku

First Post
I don't really, and strongly disagree with the brass knuckles form the APG, because the poor to-hit is what balances them. When they have full BAB and can enhance, then they become like a fighter that is using a weapon that does 2d10 points of base damage...

If you compare to the 3.5 Fighter, yeah.. it's too good to be true.

The thing is, the Pathfinder Fighter has Weapon Training bonuses along with his class-only feats. In a one-to-one comparison build (TWF vs Flurry) he more than makes up for the damage loss, and still has higher attack bonus.
Since we are comparing end caps (2d10 damage), Weapon Mastery makes the Fighter immune to disarm attempts anyways.
On top of that, he can decide to go a different route if he wanted, and has additional unique feats that give extra potential (DR piercing feats, apply two crit feats at once, etc).

There's a good thread on the Paizo boards called the "DPR Olympics" that tries to hash out the different classes and builds potential at combat damage. They did a pretty good job of keeping the comparison at a realistic level (comparing vs monsters and not each other, reasonable levels, etc).
The Fighter is fairly universally considered "the best" now at dealing damage, although that's from a pure powergaming point of view.

Giving the Monk the brass knuckles, while a major fundamental shift in his equipment allocation, is not a game breaking problem when put into practice. Keep in mind that he doesn't even get double digit damage dice (say that 5x fast) until he hits 12th level, and most of his gaming life will be spent playing with 2d6 or lower damage dice.
 


Kaisoku

First Post
The monk class already gets a level bonus to Acrobatic checks, and can spend a Ki point (that higher Wisdom gives more of) to get a +20 bonus to Acrobatics.

Really, Initiative and Ranged combat are what Monk will want to focus on Dex for... and they don't have Sneak Attack so "going first" isn't quite as critical as it is for other classes.
 

Also, I think Mr. Jacobs has said that Improved Natural was never intended to be used w/ the Monks Unarmed Attack.
As I remember it ...

Initially James said monks couldn't take the feat.

When it was explained that lots of people thought they could (I remember one of those epic length threads on ENWorld about it in 3.5; I'm not sure whether it is more clear cut in Pathfinder) he said that made the feat too good as all monks would take it.

Then he discussed it with Jason Bulmahn and the result was it was errata'd so monks definitely couldn't benefit from the feat. (Per Bestiary errata, add "(not an unarmed strike)" to the end of the first sentence in the feat description.)

There is no question of nerfing Natural Spell however; presumably not all druids take that particular feat.
 
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Werebat

Explorer
"There is no question of nerfing Natural Spell however; presumably not all druids take that particular feat."

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

<Wipes eyes>

Seriously, though, WHY didn't they take care of that little problem when they had the chance?

"Sucks to be YOUUUU!!!" (in a birdlike caw) is a running joke at our gaming table when the druid turns into a bird to fly around lobbing spells all combat, leaving his groundling companions to soak all attacks from the enemy...
 

jasin

Explorer
OK, quick and dirty fix for the monk -- give it full BAB. That's what I did in 3.5.

Too good? Not enough?

- Ron ^*^
Hey, Ron! :) How's things?

The Pathfinder monk effectively has good BAB when flurrying (and two-weapon fighting feats).

My quick and dirty fix for 3.5: make the additional flurry attacks usable at all times, regardless of whether the monk is moving, full attacking, attacking with a non-monk weapons. Encourages mobility, allows wuxia swordsmen, gives a combat boost, all in one!

Doesn't really work in Pathfinder, since flurry isn't just bonus attacks, but a whole new BAB... :erm:
 

Kaiyanwang

Adventurer
I consider myself a fan of Pathfinder but the IUS thing makes me headscratch. If you add to this that there is a druid spell in the APG that increases a natural attack by 2 dice, I feel like there's some disparity in treatment.

On the flipside, if a druid casts such spell (since is ot personal) on the monk, jump from 2d6 to 4d6, or from 4d8 to 6d8 before enlarge person is reeealy nice. Another way could be UMD.

Said this, talking about druids.. I cannot IMAGINE a druid that does not take natural spell.
 

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