Why doesn't "precision damage" affect Undead?

[Jeff Wilder]

I've never been a big fan of the rule that sneak attacks, critical hits, ranger bonus damage, and so on doesn't affect undead. It just doesn't fit in with what pop culture shows us about undead.

How do you kill a zombie? You hit it in the head.

How do you kill a vampire? You decapitate it, or hit it in the heart with a stake.

How did the designers overlook this stuff when they made that rule? Sure, undead can't be stabbed in the kidneys, but an undead hunter knows that ... he'll go for a target that will affect them.

Just a mini-rant.

 

[hong]

Last game I ran, I allowed sneak attacks and crits on undead. To balance things, I also allowed them their Cha bonus to hit points, much like Con (but not Cha penalty, so no knocking over Cha 1 skeletons with a feather).

 

[AuraSeer]

I've never been a big fan of the rule that sneak attacks, critical hits, ranger bonus damage, and so on doesn't affect undead. It just doesn't fit in with what pop culture shows us about undead.

That depends on your pop culture.

For instance, zombies in some stories had no vulnerable points at all. You couldn't ever really kill them, so you just had to hack them into pieces too small to be dangerous. I think it's only after Night of the Living Dead that the "headshot" vulnerability became standard.

 

[green slime]

I've never been a big fan of the rule that sneak attacks, critical hits, ranger bonus damage, and so on doesn't affect undead. It just doesn't fit in with what pop culture shows us about undead.

How do you kill a zombie? You hit it in the head.

How do you kill a vampire? You decapitate it, or hit it in the heart with a stake.

How did the designers overlook this stuff when they made that rule? Sure, undead can't be stabbed in the kidneys, but an undead hunter knows that ... he'll go for a target that will affect them.

Just a mini-rant.

Is that what pop culture shows us?

I see zombie movies where the zombies keep moving, even their limbs wriggling across the carpet and head rolling around on the floor chasing people. Can't recall seeing a movie where it was sufficient to hit a zombie in the head

Skeletons, are not generally affected by kicks to the groin, jabs to the throat, or mace to the temple.

Shadows... well what are you gonna do there?

Ghouls; they eat. I suppose that might have some important digestive tract you can puncture and cause great harm. Good luck. Other than that, I guess they are sort of like zombies, except they have a degree of self will

Liches: see skeletons.

Ghosts, aren't generally worried about material things at all, apart from items of good faiths strongly presented.

Vampires: from what I recall were basically immune to most things, until trapped at rest in their coffin, whereby you had to be quick to stab in the heart and chop its head off, and stuff its mouth full of garlic. Preferably dousing it in holy water as well. Hardly a single standard action thing. The latest "pop culture" vampire-splatter movies, I suppose, such as "Blade", don't really emphasize this difficulty enough, but then again I find it really hard to watch those movies...

 

[GorTeX]

Ranger with favored enemy Undead does get to apply the damage to Undead..

But on to the question: Undead may have a vunerable spot, but it is usually one specific spot..the head or heart as you mentioned. Normal humans have several places that vunerable...even armor can create a vunerable spot (places it doesn't cover). Hitting an undead in the groin is not the same as hitting the Barbarian in the groin. A zombie doesn't bleed out it's life's essence if you cut it's jugular. Stuff like that.

I think this represents the unstopable nature of Undead and Constructs--it generally doesn't matter where you hit them, they just keep coming for you.

 

[Klaus]

In a Fafhrd & Grey Mouser story (When The Sea King's Away), the Mouser is beset by three drowned pirates (think zombies). He stabs at them to no avail, until he tries to cut their tendons. They ain't dead, but can't move anymore.

When I throw in an undead with a special vulnerability (like vampires), I allow the following rule for sneak attacks and crits:

- Roll the additional damage separatedly. If the total damage dealt is enough to drop the creature to 0 hp or less, you have hit the special vulnerable spot, and the creature is dead. If the extra damage isn't enough to drop the creature to 0 hp or less, then you only deal the normal damage for the weapon, not the extra damage for sneak attack or critical hit.

This applies to slashing weapons being used against vampires (causing beheading) and wooden stakes (hits the heart). If your zombies are of the decapitating kind, I'd allow this rule for them too.

All that being said, there's a substitution level for rogues in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft that allows half-sneak attack to apply to undead, in lieu of trap sense (iirc).

 

[Henry]

Look at it this way: If you cut a zombie's tendons, what stops it from moving? By rights, if a skeletal undead can move without muscles, a fleshy undead should be able to, also. It's kind of like the terminator: He keeps coming until you hack him to bits.

 

[Hjorimir]

I struggle with this because I use undead a lot and I just don't want the rogues overly frustrated. In the end, it's all about fun. I wish I could find an elegant rule that made sneak attack at least somewhat applicable.

 

[Nail]

I struggle with this because I use undead a lot and I just don't want the rogues overly frustrated. In the end, it's all about fun. I wish I could find an elegant rule that made sneak attack at least somewhat applicable.

Allow the feat that applies Sneak Attack to UD.

Problem solved!

 

[Darklone]

I allow sneak attacks against vampires with the reasoning that they lose more blood if you hit right.

Other undeads have other houserules... but all these houserules only apply to undead heavy campaigns, otherwise I don't bother.