Why don’t players surrender... would we want them too?

[Doug McCrae]

If you want surrender to be a normal option, you probably have to set is as a cultural norm within the lands the PCs inhabit.

You're absolutely right from a what-makes-sense-in-the-game-world perspective.

I think there's a couple of perspectives where a lopsided approach - PCs never take prisoners but can be captured themselves - does make sense:

1) Genre convention. The protagonists in adventure fiction are very frequently captured but rarely take prisoners. Some examples from Appendix N: The Hobbit (dwarves captured by goblins), The Two Towers (Merry and Pippin by orcs), The Roaring Trumpet (Harold Shea imprisoned in the fire giant stronghold with trolls as his jailers), Tarzan at the Earth's Core (Jason Gridley imprisoned by lizard-men).

2) Player convenience. The prison escape can work as a form of adventure that's a bit different to the usual, but as you say problems can arise when the PCs have to deal with captives.

 

[Umbran]

You're absolutely right from a what-makes-sense-in-the-game-world perspective.

Not just that. More in a second....

I think there's a couple of perspectives where a lopsided approach - PCs never take prisoners but can be captured themselves - does make sense:

1) Genre convention....

2) Player convenience...

I agree that the lopsided approach, as a practical matter for running a game, can make loads of sense.

But, those are also metagame considerations. How do you intend to communicate them to your players? And, what do you want to do with players who don't want to be making metagame-driven decisions?

If you make it an in-game cultural tradition, then the antagonists can surrender and don't have to fight to the last person. Then, seeing it, the players can understand that you won't utterly hose them, and allows them to be able to make the decision to take prisoners or surrender without making it a metagame thing.

Even if you tell them this explicitly, reinforcing it in play and game world helps people remember the point.

 

[Scott Christian]

First off, these are great observations! Good thread. Thanks TheSword.

Do DMs give the impression that surrender would result in death anyway?

I think there are a lot of times that characters are fighting a creature, so death would be the end result. That purple worm isn't going to walk away from a meal that big. But, when it comes to other humanoids, I feel like it's the DM's territory (and obligation if they have murder hobos in the group that ruin things for others) to show how wrong it is to take a life of something not "creature-like."

Do players resent the loss of agency?

I think when they trust the DM and have good chemistry, it doesn't matter. They understand, regardless of the outcome, that the DM was being impartial and leaning on the player's side.

Do DMs make cells too strong to the point that escape would seem impossible?

Goes back to that trust. Most of my players know if they are captured, that there will be a chance for them to redeem themselves. Either through a trial (roleplay) or skill challenges or combat.

Do players despise the idea of not having their stuff, even for a short time?

Yes. Yes. A million times, yes.

On a side note, I will often incorporate backgrounds to help show the negative consequences of just "killing a guard." It takes proper setup. And it can't be used all the time. But, if the character is about to get arrested, the town knows it, and they see their sister and mom and dad standing there looking at them with pleading eyes, asking why. They are much more inclined to not create a bloodbath. I think it goes back to reminding players to play their characters, not their whims. I mean, would a chaotic good thief really just start slaughtering guards to escape with his loving mom right there. Probably not. But again. It needs to be setup correctly and not used a lot.

 

[Asisreo]

Most of the characters my players run into aren't blatant murders until they see their fellow man die.

If you've been merciful throughout the encounter, the enemies will be inclined to show you mercy as well, to a limit. The same goes with being intent to kill. Some won't kill no matter what while some will always try to kill.

Usually, though, fights won't immediately start as a matter of the NPC's life or death unless fighting evil or nonsentient creatures since that type of escalation isn't usually desirable.

 

[MGibster]

• Do DMs give the impression that surrender would result in death anyway?
• Do players resent the loss of agency?
• Do DMs make cells too strong to the point that escape would seem impossible?
• Do players despise the idea of not having their stuff, even for a short time?

1. Yes. In most RPGs, defeated foes are killed. This is most likely because nobody really wants to deal with the complications inherent in keeping prisoners. But this turns every encounter into a life or death situation.
2. Yes. In my experience, many PCs would rather have their character killed than be forced into doing something they don't want to do.
3. I don't know. PCs don't tend to get captured very often in my experience.
4. Yes. As with #2, many players would rather their character dies than to lose access to magic items or special equipment.

Can anything be done about this and would we want to?

If a DM wants to do something about it, he or she should start having NPCs surrender or run away when it becomes obvious they're going to lose. And maybe have the occasional NPC willing to help the PCs in some way. Heck, having a PC say "I'm in charge now!" might be interesting.

 

[Griffon Lore Games]

Two things going on here:

1) Players don't want to explore the surrender option because the game was too easy, and now that the game is really hard, they wonder how the DM cheated. Show me a table with multiple PC deaths and difficult encounters, and I bet you the players will take the surrender option in hopes of keeping their new favorite alive.

2) Ever been in line where a customer orders a coffee drink that takes minutes instead of seconds? That's not because that's what they really want, it's because they have so little control and agency in their lives they try to gain some of it back, anyway they can.

Some people don't want to play a game and have that sinking feeling that they've lost control of yet another situation. They would rather have their avatar die, and I don't blame them at all.

 

[Morrus]

Play Call of Cthulhu. Players surrender and run away plenty!

 

[Nytmare]

It really depends on the game system. In most flavors of D&D, yeah. But most of what I've been playing over the last 6 or 7 years have some sort of gradation in place so that the end of every fight is not measured in terms of "the losers are all dead."

 

[TheSword]

Play Call of Cthulhu. Players surrender and run away plenty!

I’ve not played the game, what do you think it is about it that encourages this? Unequal threats? @Griffon Lore Games seems to be suggesting something similar if that is the case. Or is there something unique to CoC

To be clear I’m more interested in surrender. Running away happens all the time in our games.

 

[Jd Smith1]

My players have preferred TPKs over dishonor in the past.

And generally, they are facing foes who would not take prisoners, or if they did, would do so for the simple purpose of recreational torture and execution.