D&D 5E Why Don't We Simplify 5e?

mrpopstar

Sparkly Dude
You might not anticipate it, but it still can happen; I've had it happen. With numbers not too dissimilar to yours (merchants were, I think, about 30% of the expected road encounters because, honestly, merchants are some of the commonest people to use roads).

The point is, with any decent travel time, you're potentially going to get a lot of encounters, especially on roads, and a lot of them are going to be relatively similar. Differentiating them starts to become not just difficult, but becomes freakish, because the honest truth is most of them just aren't things almost anyone is going to care about, and making them care about them creates its own set of encounters.

There's a reason that even in fiction, a lot of this stuff is elided, and that's even in picaresque stories.
It hasn't been my experience that merchants are encountered with freakish regularity, but I'm also not against ye olde travel montage. There are many tools available to us as Dungeon Masters. I treat them like levers I can manipulate throughout a gaming session.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


Thomas Shey

Legend
It hasn't been my experience that merchants are encountered with freakish regularity, but I'm also not against ye olde travel montage. There are many tools available to us as Dungeon Masters. I treat them like levers I can manipulate throughout a gaming session.

It shouldn't be your experience; it was a probabalistic outlier when it happened to me.

But even once is pretty disruptive, and you can get slightly more dragged-out versions that still make it seem like too high a percentage of encounters are, honestly, too significant.
 

mrpopstar

Sparkly Dude
It shouldn't be your experience; it was a probabalistic outlier when it happened to me.

But even once is pretty disruptive, and you can get slightly more dragged-out versions that still make it seem like too high a percentage of encounters are, honestly, too significant.
I'm not moving to dismiss that probability makes anything possible, but I'd simply reroll if the die result didn't make sense given the circumstances.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
It shouldn't be your experience; it was a probabalistic outlier when it happened to me.

But even once is pretty disruptive, and you can get slightly more dragged-out versions that still make it seem like too high a percentage of encounters are, honestly, too significant.
Probabilistic outliers do happen though. It’s an outlier for someone to roll 3 natural 1s in a row on a d20, but it happens. If you watched Critical Role C2, you watched it happen. Maybe even live.

The odds are: 1/20*1/20*1/20. Which is .0125%.

Yet there it was. It happened. Got it on camera.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Probabilistic outliers do happen though. It’s an outlier for someone to roll 3 natural 1s in a row on a d20, but it happens. If you watched Critical Role C2, you watched it happen. Maybe even live.

The odds are: 1/20*1/20*1/20. Which is .0125%.

Yet there it was. It happened. Got it on camera.

I was just noting that not seeing this sort of thing come up is entirely to be expected, but as you note, it says nothing about what could happen tomorrow.
 

Jaeger

That someone better
If I was to Streamline 5e D&D…

I like lots of stuff I have seen in the thread already, so there will be duplicates on my wish list:

Roll d6's for a 3-18 range to get the modifier at character creation. Use the modifier for the rest of the game…

I like systems where the players have to make relevant choices for their characters. This is something I’d like to see D&D fully embrace. And I believe that it can be done while still being easier for newbies to learn than current 5e.

Actions:

Remove bonus action, everything uses an Action, Free Action or Reaction. You can’t use more than one free action per round. Dual wielding – use your Reaction. Lots of stuff that were bonus action dependent they can now just do with ‘activating’ or if it is a physical extra action – they now need to spend their reaction for it. Get rid of the idea of ‘use all your movement’. You can now only use “up to x movement”. Players ruminating how to maximize every 5’ they have slows the game down…

I like the idea of universal ranges:

All weapon and spell distances to roughly 5 (melee), 10 (reach), 30 (move, throw), 60 Missile, etc…

Monster more like 4e stat blocks - no having to look up spells or abilities, it’s all in the stat block.

Ditch inspiration. Roll it into Hit Dice. Now the PC’s have to make risk / reward choices to get advantage on a roll now vs. having HD to heal later. One meta mechanic only please…

Ditch skills. Go with 13th age/Barbarians of Lemuria style Backgrounds/Careers as Skills. 4-5 per PC.

Proficiency is now a type of skill specialization that give adv/disadv. It is now separate from Trained Abilities like: Weapon, Armor, and Language training. BAB for Melee and Missile attacks makes a comeback.

An encumbrance system that matters – A simple, straightforward, slot-based system that has the PC’s make real choices on what they can actually carry. Bulk and weight of an item are part of its Enc value now.

These are reflected on the character sheets. PBtA games are so much better at this than current D&D.

Saying “track encumbrance” and the player askes: “Ok, what is the best way to do that?” The response: “Here is a blank sheet of paper, you sort it…” Is the reason why enc is complete handwavium for most D&D players. Treat them as the subsystems they are, and have the rule referenced on a player facing character sheet that lets them easily engage with the systems of the game.

Spell level and Character level are now synced. Ditch cantrips known – they are now extra spell slots. And a spell slot is a spell slot – no “level” spell slots. You spend spell slots to cast your spells: lvl 1 spell = 1 spell slot to cast. Lvl 3 spell = 3 spell slots to cast, etc… Yes. The entire spell lists would need to be reorganized and rethought from the ground up. But it would be far more straightforward for newbies.

Distinct types of spell lists like PF. Mage (Trad Blast and cast), Drudic (Nature stuff), Sorcery (Summoning things), Miracles (Cleric powers). The classes primarily learn and focus on the spells of their class, but make an in-game way to learn a few spells from others.

A robust and straightforward downtime mechanic, with an easy reference sheet, i.e. blades n the dark. “Wasting time” healing up goes away. There are things like trained abilities, Crafting, and learning new spells that can only be done through downtime. Make engaging in down time actions very desirable for players to reference in play. No more handwavium!

Bring back the dungeon and wilderness exploration timings from B/X. Import a form of the journey rules from AiME for standard A to B non-exploration travel. Any class ability or spell that gives PC’s a “skip” button on these things is excommunicated from the rules! Did I mention straightforward reference sheets for the PC’s and GM’s?

Feats are gone. Subclasses are gone. Multiclass gone.

Class abilities: IMHO one of the more iffy parts of the game. It adds complexity but you actually make no meaningful choices for character progression after 3rd level. Added complexity with less PC choices is not good design IMHO.

I think that this can be smoothed out without going to the total featapalooza direction that PF has gone in.

As you advance you choose class abilities from three tiers: At level 1 you choose one option from 3-5 choices, Lvl 2-5 you choose from 5-7 options. From Lvl 6 on - open ended from 20 options. Per class. You do not get to select from a previous tier of options when you move past it in level. This makes for characters of the same class all having options without being duplicates of each other in the same party.

Most PCs will end up with 8-10 abilities on a 1-20 level spread. With this system a player’s choices are expanded gradually without overwhelming them with all the options available on the early levels. And yes, character abilities will need to be re-made from the ground up for each class.

These are the Cliff-Notes and I can expound on how they can work in play.


In the wailing and gnashing of teeth category:

There is one adjustment I’d make that many D&D fans would have serious issues with:

Now that I have made HD the game meta mechanic – we can ease up on the built-in meta mechanic that is HP bloat.

The ‘sweet spot’ for most D&D games seems to be lvls 4-10. I’d simply tune for that sweet spot for 20 levels of play.

Stop all HP progression at lvl 5. All other level increases occur normally. So the characters get more powerful, yet still retain a certain vulnerability to threats.

This flattens the math making it things far more streamlined as the designers no longer have to deal with the scaling issues that HP inflation has always brought to the game.

And of course, I would have some rules for the PC’s to create traps for the bigger and tougher monsters in the MM.
 

teitan

Legend
These discussions will always happen. Part of 3e's failure was in trying to present a game that had an answer for everything. 4e went that same direction. 5e does a better job, if people can move away from the "needing a rule for everything" of simplifying the game. If it were to be any simpler you would have BX. I don't think people realize how simple the core of 5e actually is because of feats and races and supplements adding complexity that isn't a part of the core. Feats, optional rule, even races, optional rule. Strip those out and you have a solid, simple, easy to run game that's core mechanic can be used to resolve pretty much any conflict that comes up in an ad hoc manner.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Back in the D&D Next days, my impression of the new edition was that the game would be streamlined and/or have its bumps ironed out. WotC would produce something more accessible to the masses, and maybe even ride the popularity of some lighter-weight games at the time (looking at you, Savage Worlds). Crunch would be Pathfinder's thing, and more power to Paizo.

But here we are with regular rules discussions from WotC, and regular rules discussions here (now in the helpful format of How To articles). A "basic rules" document. An advanced 5e on the way from ENpublishing, and a full-on battle royale thread about the plethora of DMG options. Several threads are about adding more rules to make an aspect run better or more realistically.

And here I thought 5e was about the rulings that the DM would make, not the rules. Players make their characters from the book, and the DM does the rest, right? Why don't we see more discussions here about simplifying D&D?

I mostly agree with the sentiment that 5e is simpler than other editions and RPGs, but I am also disappointed by trite suggestions to "just play Fighter" as a way to simplify the game. It is horrible as a player to be told that essentially you are still too stupid to play a major character type, as in "play for a few years and then perhaps you'll join our club of real players". Because that is essentially the message received.

To answer your concerns, first of all keep in mind that many online discussions on house rules are brought up by people who might be spending more time on planning/theorycrafting than actually playing the game... talking about house rules which complicate the game is usually more rewarding. But in practical experience, you are more likely to encounter a DM who cuts corners at the table to keep the game going. DMs in general are always simplifying here and there for the sake of not getting bogged down while playing.

All in all I think 5e has been simplified in the mechanics compared to the previous editions. There are still areas of the game that feel complicated perhaps to follow the sirens of "realism", for example death & dying rules or multiclassing requirements. They could have been worse, but they also could have been simpler without losing anything truly important.

Where I always said 5e failed a bit to deliver is class complexity. They started boldly by designing a Fighter option that was really low-complexity (Champion), but they didn't really follow up with similar ideas for all classes. There are still a few classes where a beginner player has to face more complexity than necessary, mainly because there is no low-complexity subclass option. A generalist Wizard subclass with passive abilities/bonuses for example would help a lot, considering that "Wizard" as a character archetype is simple to understand and very popular among beginners (many may not immediately understand what is a Warlock or a Cleric or a Druid and so on... but even toddlers have an idea of what a Wizard is!).

Beyond that, it would have also helped a lot to have some sidebars in the Player's Handbook to highlight "safe" choices for beginners, not just what subclass but also what spells or abilities are easier to manage. One of my absolute favourite things of 3e Player's Handbook was the class starting packages: for each class they gave you a ready-made selection of features, spells, skills and equipment. With some care, these picks could really strive for minimum complexity and maybe also try to be "iconic" for beginners. Unfortunately 5e PHB and neither the Basic Rules document have this (although they still indicate starting equipment).

From the other side of the screen, complexity can still be driven down a lot by the DM, but you don't even need to think in terms of house rules... it's more about restraining from presenting too many options upfront to the players and instead wait for their initiative. For example, rather than telling them about all the possible actions in combat, just wait until someone asks if they can grapple or disarm someone, and only then tell them how to do it.
 

Aldarc

Legend
These discussions will always happen. Part of 3e's failure was in trying to present a game that had an answer for everything. 4e went that same direction. 5e does a better job, if people can move away from the "needing a rule for everything" of simplifying the game. If it were to be any simpler you would have BX. I don't think people realize how simple the core of 5e actually is because of feats and races and supplements adding complexity that isn't a part of the core. Feats, optional rule, even races, optional rule. Strip those out and you have a solid, simple, easy to run game that's core mechanic can be used to resolve pretty much any conflict that comes up in an ad hoc manner.
A lot of the game's complexity comes from the spells, which are not one of the optional items you listed.
 

Remove ads

Top