Why don't you buy non-WoTC stuff?

[BigFreekinGoblinoid]

Ok on another side...those of you who hesitated, what would you want/need to see to be convinced to go for a non-WoTC item? I feel MEG for the last few months has picked up speed on covers, interior art and layout...I always have felt the writing has been strong, so what do you want to see...
catalog?
a free adventure 20+ pages for an item so you can see if it what you like?

Ideas welcome, I was just inspired and wanted to see your opinions.....we are listening.

also, what would your LGS want to see to have them start carrying a line of products or a company?

OK...carry on

OK - We have established that non WotC d20 publishers like MEG are doing a fairly good job with their propaganda to the internet savvy like ENWorld Messageboarders. So how to attract the larger majority of potential buyers?

I would reccomend spending more time & energy for distribution and retail management. I regularly visit 3 LGS in my area, and all of them carry a good amount of non-WotC product... BUT with the proliferation of d20 releases, shelf space has become a serious issue. 2 of them have already expanded ( over the past 2 years )their D&D space to more than double what it was before! Now that is good, but it is not enough.

Here is what I see happening: The retailer orders a few copies of a non-WotC d20 product when released and it either sells, or sits on the shelves. Most retailers are not replacing ( re-ordering ) the ones that DO sell because they 1) are not keeping track, OR 2), feel like they do not have the shelf space. Of course they will special order for you, but that is not acceptable from your point of view. An agressive publisher should try and find ways to identify the retailers who have sold out of their product an use that fact as leverage to reorder from the disti. Trying to get the Retailer to order more initially is probably futile, as they have many d20 stuff just sitting taking up valuable shelf space, and they do not feel they need to take a risk.

Case in point: LGS A had a copy of FL:UB, and I went to buy it the next time I ws there, and it was gone. The counter girl had no clue what I was talking about and offered to take a note and possibly see if she could get this ordered for me. I chose to buy it instead at LGS C ( LGS B did not have it - I'm guessing they sold out ) I bought the last copy at LGS C. We will see if they re-order...

So what will your re-order strategy be?

 

[MEG Hal]

OK - We have established that non WotC d20 publishers like MEG are doing a fairly good job with their propaganda to the internet savvy like ENWorld Messageboarders. So how to attract the larger majority of potential buyers?
Case in point: LGS A had a copy of FL:UB, and I went to buy it the next time I ws there, and it was gone. The counter girl had no clue what I was talking about and offered to take a note and possibly see if she could get this ordered for me. I chose to buy it instead at LGS C ( LGS B did not have it - I'm guessing they sold out ) I bought the last copy at LGS C. We will see if they re-order...

So what will your re-order strategy be?

We are working on that by trying to commit to at least 2 products monthly so we "train" people to remember us, but I agree it is keeping the back stock on the shelves not the initial order at the LGS that will see a boon in long term cusotmers.

THANKS---CH, that was a great compliment, wait till you see the next 2 items from the TG brand.


Laiyna---I will gladly offer some choices, what types of items do you purchase? Based on your needs I will gladly suggest an item or two! Thanks for the offer.

 

[radferth]

I buy a fair amount of non-wotc stuff, wizards is still a plurality (and perhaps a slim majority) of the rpg stuff that I buy. In general, I trust WoTC for their rules, more than I trust most other folks, at least. I find most WotC adventures too much like CRPGs for my liking, so I tend to buy adventures and campaign setting from other folks. For me to buy a brand new product from a company I have not bought from before, I would need some good word of mouth, or good reviews on this site. Once I trusted them, I would be quite likely to buy from them in the future.

If other folks are like me, then that would explain some of WotC's advantage in sales. Rules are of use to players and DMs alike, while settings and adventures are more useful to DMs. Plus, players wanting some new abilities are much more likely to get the DM to buy into an "offical" supplement than something third party. This is perhaps not fair, but WotC has a built in advantage from owning the game.

 

[Matthew The Mage]

Matthew, I never intended my post to be a flame, and whatever reasons you use to buy books is your choosing. You can tie a washer to a string and ask it mystical questions for all I care. I was simply disagreeing with your assertion that D20 covers are not as good as WoTC covers. At least, that's how I read it. If I misinterpreted your post, then I apologize.

Ok misuderstanding's happen.

Ok another way for me to say it is that the Wizo's book IMO look more professional.

I am all in favour of d20.
I hope they have great success as some of the best talent no longer works for Wizo's and are free to make products as they see fit.

 

[Lizard]

I'm the wrong person to ask, I buy mostly non-WOTC stuff....I think this entire board is the wrong 'person' to ask, as it's a non-representative sample of the gaming population.

I suspect a lot of 'typical' gamers still don't "get" the D20 logo, and what it means.

 

[Psion]

Hear me out on this one. The primary culprit here is prestige classes. Something that, conceptually, is already in the game (more specifically, the core rules), is introduced with another mechanic. Examples: any archer prestige class (if you want to be good with a bow, there are plenty of feats in the core rules),

Okay, to a point. Sometimes you want to acheive something that marks the an organization as special, or heightens the character's specialty. Any archer can get good with the bow, but perhaps the "thornwood archers" are known for their ability to shoot at targets unseen.

fighting style rules (also covered by proper feat selection),

On this I perfectly agree. There is a mechanic for this sort of thing, it's called prestige classes and feat chains.

and other nonsense prestige classes like the Shadowy Avenger or the Ghostwalker (it's called roleplaying, you don't need mechanics).

This I take umbrage with.

I agree inasmauch as a general rule of thumb for me, if you can realize the concept with core classes and feats, don't bother with a prestige class.

However, Ghostwalker doesn't fit into this category. No feat chain or core class makes you a tough hombre after you get your teeth kicked in by the bad guy, nor do they give you the ability to walk in the shadows. Prestige classes are perfect for the creation of such mysterious figures.
I think prestige classes are a great mechanic when used properly.

 

[Nightfall]

I think prestige classes are a great mechanic when used properly.

Got my vote Psion. Certainly I don't see some times how people can scream about the Viligante compared to being able to burn say one 9th level slot to get a +7 for a spell focus. At least with Herophant, you don't worry about gaining more power AND improving spellcasting. That's not including mastery of shaping and/or mastering of counterspelling. (Something that get's overlooked at times.)

 

[icebreaker]

Being somewhat new to the world of DnD on the net and having come from the "use to play in high school" to now playing 3E DnD there are a few things I can say as far as why untill the last couple of months I wouldn't have considered purchasing Non Wizard Material.

First the whole D20 thing.. I bought the Core rules about a year ago slowly digesting them trying to get some interest in some online friends to play.. and I understood the concept of D20 as a rule system but didn’t' really trust that if a product had a D20 Stamp on it that it was really DnD...Its taken reading sights like Enworld and a few others to go DING! ok doesn't look like a Bigmac.. Doesn't smell like a BigMac.. but *chomp chomp* yep takes like a BigMac.

Also yes flipping thru a lot of D20 books. Wizards Products ooze quality and a consistency to them.. whether the Content is all that is not the point.. the presentation is fantastic.. tho some don't like their latest style.. it is very professional.

I think as well 3rd party suppliers really need to start looking at other ways of promoting their work.. and it needs to be visible for both the retailers and the buying public.

Until such a time that you are a proven Quality Identity (I'd say sword and sorcery is in this position now) You need Endorsements from reputable sources that will convince retailers that there is a good chance your product will sell and that its a quality product their customers will be happy with. As well as for those looking for new books.

Ok here is an example
Death in Freeport.. never would have ever picked it up to look at it..
Now slap a sticker on the front that says
DnD Creator Monte Cook says "IF you like city adventures, you'll like these; I'll use some of it in my game."
I’d check it out at the very least.. I’ve heard of Monte Cook.. I haven’t heard of Freeport.

Or
Freeport: City of Adventure with a sticker that says
Winner of 2002 GenCon Ennie! One of the BEST of the year!

You see what I mean.. cheesy yep.. does it work.. coarse it does.. its adds credibility to your products.. ya you might need to pay them for the quotes ect ect..
But I guarantee you just that would get more people to pick it up on the wall and flip thru it.
Show a retailer with a printout of how it rates on a top website like enworld and they might see it as a better sell.


Also Get Wizards to allow third party D20 people to incorporate DnD into the d20 logo somehow so you know this D20 product is for DnD would help for the newer more casual players that aren’t online and quiet so well informed.

 

[Numion]

I'm the wrong person to ask, I buy mostly non-WOTC stuff....I think this entire board is the wrong 'person' to ask, as it's a non-representative sample of the gaming population.

I suspect a lot of 'typical' gamers still don't "get" the D20 logo, and what it means.

Amen. EN Boards has < 5000 active members. That's a fraction of a percent of the whole D&D gaming population.

Would it have been damaging for WotC to make the d20 symbol somehow look more D&D? Of course, then it wouldn't be called the "d20" logo, but something else.

 

[Khorod]

WotC consistently tackles the basics, and generally produces competent stuff. But many people I know that aren't in the online community see all the third party stuff as jumped-up fan products, or perhaps the personal work of WotC writers.

Myself, I think if you say the top 5% of products are awesome, there is more 3rd party stuff there than Wizards. I also think that generic rules are getting boring, particularly when the flavor/content is severely paired down to give us pure mechanics. The content part is the edge the third party companies have, that and being unafraid to push past the boundaries of conventional d20/D&D rules.

I think once the third party publishers get beyond the hobby shops and the back corner of Waldenbooks in recognition, things will pick up quickly. Even moreso as the companies merge together. There are too many publishers on the shelf for the number of books for the purpose of attracting new, respectful attention. Of course, all those publishers are doing good, one you look inside.

I like modular stuff, with content and just enough crunch to highlight what I want to use without making everything in my game tilt. All these books with 12 new feats and 8 new prestige classes are going too far, scraping every possible mechanical addition out of the product's theme.

I don't have the money to by humorous products, since I play and DM in serious games. Nor do I like books that rely on others, not only does that cost more money, it makes me feel manipulated.

Good work with magic, religion, and development of overlooked traditions, philosophies, and groups of Earth invariably catch my attention.