Why don't you buy non-WoTC stuff?

Matthew The Mage said:


Please read my whole post before you start flaming me.
I said my two cents and i have every right to buy or not buy a product on what ever area's i decide.
So don't tell me what i think or feel is lame.

I think better art and hard covers would get my intrest.

Second i do own a large amount of d20 books.

Matthew

Matthew, I never intended my post to be a flame, and whatever reasons you use to buy books is your choosing. You can tie a washer to a string and ask it mystical questions for all I care. I was simply disagreeing with your assertion that D20 covers are not as good as WoTC covers. At least, that's how I read it. If I misinterpreted your post, then I apologize.
 

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die_kluge said:

Just an unrelated question, having bought the FRCS, do you *play* in FR, and have you used that book?

Yes, I DM a Realms campaign. Consequently I've used that book a great deal. That's of course one criteria for me when buying books; it has to have good content also. I wouldn't have bought GH book, even if it had been done in such a style as the FRCS.
 

Hmmm. Lets see, I have the three core books, FRCS, and a couple of adventures from WOTC. I have dozens of third party stuff, probably at least one product from almost every D20 publisher out there. So, no, WOTC's brand name doesn't influence my purchasing at all.
 

my$0.02

I'm the DM in a Forgotten realms campaign. Beside the three core rule books and the FRCS, I don't need anything else. Look at this sight for instance. There is a variety of new monsters thought up daily by some very smart people, prestige classes that are critiqued by a variety of players and anything else that i need. Why would I pay for it? I think the access to free and interesting material is undercutting the demand. The truth is, I probably won't buy another d20 again. Heck, www.Montecook.com, has given me the arch enemy for my campaign, a free pdf demon he posted. it was exactly what i needed. I find everything needed on sights already.

My players, however, do buy a FEW (very few) other books, but they seem to buy only WOTC stuff. They're not in the on-line community, so they basicaly associate D&D and WOTC as the same thing. Everything else is a wannabe to them. I know that's depressing to some third party publishers and I sympathise. But you asked for the truth. Basicaly, in most of the minds of the players that I've seen, they want to play the game, not PAY for the game. They buy the occasional book that interests them (one has Epic level, another has manual of the Planes), but if they're going to spring for it, it's going to be a "real D&D book" not some knock-off (third party are knock-offs to them). I personally don't agree with this, but to each their own.
 

JRRNeiklot said:
Hmmm. Lets see, I have the three core books, FRCS, and a couple of adventures from WOTC. I have dozens of third party stuff, probably at least one product from almost every D20 publisher out there. So, no, WOTC's brand name doesn't influence my purchasing at all.

Ok, great but after the initial one purchase what made you come back for seconds...thirds etc.

Again not wanting to start any fights I am really curious and this thread is very interesting.
 

CRGreathouse said:


I'm really not sure where you get this "[o]nly proven bread-winners are acceptable" theory from WotC. Let's look at series with the number of products (published or planned; my estimates):

Mongoose: Quintessential series (21), Slayer's guides (14), Encyclopedia Divine (2+), Encyclopedia Arcane (7)
Bad axe: Heroes of High Favor (7)
WotC: class books series (5), Monster Manuals (2)
MEG: Nightmares & Dreams (2), Interludes (2)
Ambient: Librum Equitus (2)

They're right in the middle of the pack!

I was speaking in terms of innovation of ideas. There is nothing innovative about monster manuals unless they introduce a concept new and heretofore unseen (I could be wrong, but it doesn't look like MM2 is going to do that). And in the class books that I've seen, innovation is in short supply. The Quintessential series at least attempts to bring some new ideas in for each topic. Even if a number of these fall flat, it's better than clinging to the archetypes for no reason other than that it's worked before.
 

I tend to buy more wizards stuff, for several reasons:

1) Balance: Wizards is far from perfect, but most d20 stuff just seems like it isn't balanced to me. With this I'm only talking about rules issues, not adventures and such.

2) I don't run pre-written adventures often enough to buy them with all the free one's online.

3) "Alternate" Rules and versions of classes don't usually impress me. Sorry, Shamans, Chaos Magic, etc.

4) Mechanics for the sake of mechanics:
Hear me out on this one. The primary culprit here is prestige classes. Something that, conceptually, is already in the game (more specifically, the core rules), is introduced with another mechanic. Examples: any archer prestige class (if you want to be good with a bow, there are plenty of feats in the core rules), fighting style rules (also covered by proper feat selection), and other nonsense prestige classes like the Shadowy Avenger or the Ghostwalker (it's called roleplaying, you don't need mechanics).

For an example of a book with alternate classes and prestige classes that are nothing but these things, look at the Quintessential Rogue. Everything in Character Concepts and the Prestige Rogue can be achieved with the core rules with proper feat and skill selection and role playing.

Also, almost all of the feats in Beyond Monks fell into this category for me.

Again, Wizards isn't without blemish here. In fact, most of the splat book prestige classes are just this.

I will say this: I understand the need for more fine tuned differences in an all-fighter game or something (like Rokugan does with samurai), but for the broader games I run there's no reason for this many options that accomplish the same thing conceptually. I guess you could call me a rules minimalist.

5) Information about what's in Wizard's stuff is more readily available.

6) Superior follow up- Wizards might not be the best on errata, but they strive to make sure that future supplements are compatible with present supplements, whereas most d20 rules supplements are one-shots, never menitoned again.

7) Power Creep- It's inevitable, and Wizards suffers from it, but buying mostly them limits it.

8) The Forgotten Realms and Star Wars are my favorite settings.

For the record, here are the d20 products I own:
The good:

BOEM I & II (but some stuff that I don't like, such as feats that are powerful but are "offset" by requiring high ability scores, so characters who are already powerful can get MORE powerful)

Quintessential Rogue (alternate uses for skills and trap construction on the fly rules are both superb)

Traps and Treachery (best d20 supplement out there, IMHO, for chapters 3-5)

The Giant's Skull- a really original adventure idea, it was fun for a one-shot

Counter Collections I & II (Ok, maybe the only thing better than Traps and Treachery)

Rokugan- Courtier class is superb, other core classes are blah, lots of mechanics that are only good in a game with lots of samurai that REALLY need to be differentiated- everything a setting sourcebook should be

The So-So:
Relics and Rituals- bad prestige classes, poorly done magical items, but some pretty good spells

The bad:
Swashbuckling Adventures- Takes the mechanics for mechanics sake idea and turns it into a dogmatic religion. This had way too many classes in it. It might be good in a Rokugan sort of way where minutia matter since the genre is so fixed, but I consider it bad because basically nothing from this book is portable into my games. Also, it doesn't maintain ANY sense of internal balance.

Beyond Monks- The Martial Artist class had some potential, but fell on its face. Finishing Move? That's something a 13 year old would write. The feats, as I've already said, are just mechanics for the sake of mechanics. The only thing I liked was the feat that lets a monster pick up a smaller creature and club people with it.
 
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I use bluffside as my campaign setting. Why? Because it's got enough there for me to toy with and flesh out if needbe. Just enough to get me started and then on my way.


Only downfall is that GH has over 20years worth of material to draw from so therefore it's got more information out there on it to rely on. Heck I maybe smart but I don't have eons of time to devote to write up my whole world. I am much too lazy to do that when someone else has already writen a volume on the areas I need.


Give the settings 5 years and then come back and revist them.
 

laiyna said:
THG Hal,

If your products are so good and strong. What book would you sugest for me that could match the quality of the books/settings I mentioned. Name me one product (and I will be fair that I prefer none-adventures), and I'll buy it and put my review on this board. Be it good or bad... But I will compare it to the products I mentioned above, if it does not come even close to that quality I will say it also.


Bluffside is a fantastic city book, one of the best I've ever seen. That's why we nominated it for an ENnie. In addition, Interludes: Brief Expeditions to Bluffside is a great adventure, and we nominated it also, for good reason. Hal and crew are not just talkin' the talk; they're walkin' the walk.
 

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