Why don't you buy non-WoTC stuff?

[Slacker]

I think one of the reasons is that too many companies are creating toolboxes rather than creating tools.

1. Rather than viewing 27 different Necromancer prestige classes, how about a book that gives you the tools to create your own prestige classes, along with solid advice to keep everything balanced. I want a book that deconstructs how classes are made using the d20 system and shows you how to build them up again.

2. No more campaign settings. It doesn't matter how much your published setting rocks on buttered toast. I already have a setting, as do most people.

3. Rather than address different fantasy ideas, address the d20 system itself. I'd love to see a "Tome of House Rules"

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Rifts is one thing, but even there, I suspect Palladium could make a lot more money by going d20.

I consider Palladium the Michael Crichton of rpg's- they can come up with good plot/story ideas, but can't do anything but mangle them.

I really liked the Nightbane(spawn!) books, but the last one they put out got so bizarre- the final chapter made no sense and if used would invalidate a lot of the other books.

Besides- while some people accuse WOTC of power-creeping with the splat books, Palladium does power-leaping with their supplements.

Nah, that is ok, they can stay far away from d20. haha.

FD

 

[ForceUser]

Re: Re: Re: Why don't you buy non-WoTC stuff?

Ok so what about Bluffside a 144 page city book made for any d20 medium magic campaign, a lot of us have generic offerings as well as specific, so I was looking for ideas on how to inform you that we have all of this good stuff with a lot that can be immediately used in homebrew campaigns.

Bluffside looks totally cool! Unfortunately, I'm running Oriental Adventures for the foreseeable future - don't suppose you could do a book on medieval Peking?

Seriously though, for me it's a matter of K.I.S.S. (no, not the band, the acronym: Keep It Simple, Stupid). There are so many D20 products out there right now that it's a bit overwhelming trying to figure out what to choose - so I just don't. "When in doubt, stick with WotC" has become something of an unofficial motto at our gaming table. We're hesitant to add 3rd party rules to our play, especially new spells. Feats are sort of in the middle, and we're most accepting of prestige classes. Everything is on a case-by-case basis, but at the end of the day it's easier not to worry about how a 3rd party book is going to affect our gameplay. I know that's not what a D20 publisher wants to hear, but it's the truth in our case.

I will say this, Hal: most of the D20 books I bought because of what I read about them on these very messageboards and said to myself "Cool! I need to check that out!" I don't go to D20 websites very often except to click a link now and then to support ENWorld, and I don't like to read books at the game store (feels like cheating to me, plus I'm lazy), so most of what I hear about cool D20 books comes from word-of-mouth.

 

[hellbender]

I have to chime in with several people:

Art: As an illustrator myself, I am picky, and some d20 offerings have turned me off by the covers and interior art, which is my bad, in a way, I am sure I am missing out on excellent gaming material, but hey, good art sells, and moves product faster, that is the bottom line. I have purchased D20 books that have marginal material, but pretty good art.

Generic usage: I run homebrew, so I am looking for very generic material, I am a big Mongoose fan, as well as Green Ronin and Malhavoc Press in my d20 choices. I bought the Creature Collections for Scarred Lands, but just can't get myself to make the leap any further.

Distributorship: I think that this is the biggest problem in my area. While I have higher disposable income than the average bear (at least in my area, I can drop $200-$400 per month on gaming products alone), I have a 30 mile trip to see a wide selection of publishers as locally there are two stores that sell rpg materials, and both stick with the larger companies. And this is the saddest part as I can look beyond the art, I can convert other settings to mine, but I cannot know your products if I have no exposure to them. If it were not for being online, I more than likely would not make the 30 mile trek every so often to peruse other companies as I would not have known about Thunderhead Games or Mystic Eye Games. This is not meant at all as a slight to any d20 company, this is a problem with distribution, I have made purchases from smaller d20 companies while on my rpg journey, and much of that is based on the friendliness of publishers here and getting to know about their products. The internet does much more than a full page ad in Dragon or Dungeon for me.


Just my two coppers,
hellbender

 

[Zaruthustran]

Why buy?

I own the PHB, DMG, MM, FRCS, D&D, and the splatbooks, and that's enough for me. Actually, it's more than enough--I could get by with just the three core books, but I got the FRCS as a gift from one of the authors and the splatbooks and D&D from a friend here at work (I work at a book store and they were comp copies).

I won't buy 3rd party rule books (or even any more WotC rule books) because I don't need them. The core rulebooks give me everything I need: rules, classes, races, foes, and a couple sample prestige classes. I can create other prestige classes and a setting on my own, thank you very much. In fact, for me that's a great part of the fun of D&D.

I'm likely to buy an adventure module or two, just in case I burn out. But with very few possible exceptions (like the Stronghold book, because I build plaster castles for Warhammer games) my book buying days are over.

-z

 

[Ashrum the Black]

Okay my two cents. I own most of the WOTC books. I own several of the non-WOTC books, I tend to buy from companies and authors I know and trust. I've found that quality within those independent titles tends to vary wildly. So are very very good. Others tend to very very bad. So I'm more cautious of my purchases from these folk. This is not to say I think WOTC products are the greatest, but over all their product and thier editing tends to be head and shoulders above most of the independents.

So what can somebody wanting my money do to get it. Make a product that appeals. Something that fills a niche that WOTC never will. It doens't have to be specific like an entire book on monster x. But something that details a slightly broader topic with bits of fluff and crunch. And for goodness sakes, edit the book and catch the silly mistakes before it's released. Paragraphs shouldn't jump around the page and I shouldn't have to try and put them back together. The numbers should also make sense. Don't tell me to roll a die and then refence a differnet method in the text.

Enough rambling from me.

 

[Matthew The Mage]

Sorry, not buying it. I think the cover art excuse is pretty lame.

Hard covers? Lame excuse. WoTC splat books all sold VERY well. You think any D20 publisher reached the sales level of DotF, or TaB? Keep on dreaming. WoTC can produce soft-cover books and sell them like hot-cakes. D20 can't.

So, if it's not cover art, and the fact that most D20 stuff is softback, what is your excuse now?

Please read my whole post before you start flaming me.
I said my two cents and i have every right to buy or not buy a product on what ever area's i decide.
So don't tell me what i think or feel is lame.

I think better art and hard covers would get my intrest.

Second i do own a large amount of d20 books.

Matthew

 

[hellbender]

Re: Why buy?

I own the PHB, DMG, MM, FRCS, D&D, and the splatbooks, and that's enough for me. Actually, it's more than enough--I could get by with just the three core books, but I got the FRCS as a gift from one of the authors and the splatbooks and D&D from a friend here at work (I work at a book store and they were comp copies).

I won't buy 3rd party rule books (or even any more WotC rule books) because I don't need them. The core rulebooks give me everything I need: rules, classes, races, foes, and a couple sample prestige classes. I can create other prestige classes and a setting on my own, thank you very much. In fact, for me that's a great part of the fun of D&D.

I'm likely to buy an adventure module or two, just in case I burn out. But with very few possible exceptions (like the Stronghold book, because I build plaster castles for Warhammer games) my book buying days are over.

-z

And that is definitely your choice. I invest a lot of money in WotC and 3rd party for the variety. Lately I have been getting a lot of mileage from Mongoose, Green Ronin and Malhavoc, and I am grateful to these companies for putting out quality products my players and I can use in our games.
There is nothing wrong with a limited spectrum of materials, it is the person running the game that makes it happen.

hellbender

 

[CRGreathouse]

New and different is discouraged by the modern American corporate viewpoint. Only proven bread-winners are acceptable. This, of course, breeds stagnation. Smaller outfits tend to be more innovative for a number of reasons. They feel a need to distance themselves from the pack a bit to get recognized. And they are willing to take risks. This, IMO, is backward. WoTC has much deeper pockets than small publishers, and SHOULD be more willing to take risks. Instead they stomp up and down on originality in their products like Thumper on crack.

I'm really not sure where you get this "[o]nly proven bread-winners are acceptable" theory from WotC. Let's look at series with the number of products (published or planned; my estimates):

Mongoose: Quintessential series (21), Slayer's guides (14), Encyclopedia Divine (2+), Encyclopedia Arcane (7)
Bad axe: Heroes of High Favor (7)
WotC: class books series (5), Monster Manuals (2)
MEG: Nightmares & Dreams (2), Interludes (2)
Ambient: Librum Equitus (2)

They're right in the middle of the pack!

 

[der_kluge]

I'd rather buy pretty books like FRCS. In fact, I consider that to be one of the best value-for-money deals I've got in rpgs. So pretty cover and good art certainly help to win me over as a customer. If B&W softcover costs $30 and a full-color HC costs $40 I'll gladly pay the difference in price. (And I'm a student and money don't grow in trees.)

Why do you say it's an excuse? It's just a personal preference. And wasn't that just what THG Hal wanted to know: what makes people buy products, i.e. what are their preferences?

That's fine, if having good cover art is their preference, I can certainly understand that, but then in the same breath people are saying that they don't buy D20 books because they have poor covers, which is just wrong, IMHO. Some of the D20 books are as good if not better than the WoTC books. So, I wasn't buying his argument.

Just an unrelated question, having bought the FRCS, do you *play* in FR, and have you used that book?