D&D General Why Editions Don't Matter

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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Because our groups are distinct and we aren't all looking for the same experience or the same social contracts. Some groups want PvP some don't... some want player driven games other groups don't want or need that level of player authorship.
Can you cite where there is any components of player authorship in 5e it seems an unsupported roll your own concept ( other than maybe I selected this feat at level 4 or this spell during level up therefor it happens that my character learns this thing to be clear that is more than in yee old RuneQuest where if he wants to be trained in some spell he needs to find a willing master ).
 

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hawkeyefan

Legend
I think you are offloading alot onto the term 'main storyteller' that isn't really there. To contrast, I would be comfortable describing myself in my Blades in the Dark game as the main story teller (I'm the GM). But that doesn't mean the players are just along for the ride that is my story or that I've predefined exactly how everything should go. It just means I'm providing most of the detail about the world.

In this regard... the idea of lead storyteller... the two games give the exact opposite direction. D&D defines the role of the GM as "lead storyteller". Blades says on page 3 and then repeatedly at different points "... the GM is not in charge of the story."

This is why the text matters, best practices and GMing advice and all of that. It absolutely informs the way people play.

Now, I'll say that when I first read Blades in the Dark, I realized it was doing things differently. I didn't immediately grasp how, so I watched an actual play video run by the author John Harper. Seeing it all in play helped things click into place, and certain parts made much more sense after that. Then I actually ran it, and things clicked even more.

I'm not at all averse to there being other means of learning a game. That's always been the case with RPGs... most of us learn from other people who've played.

But rule books should be foundational.

I think that depends on how you define multiple styles of play

So we talk about this a lot... all of us... we mention different styles of play. What does it mean? What are two styles of play that you'd say D&D supports?
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Which fundamentally undercuts the undercuts the tension of the moment for potential tension later. It also requires a certain approach to play to be a meaningful decision. It's a playstyle thing. As a GM I often prefer games that give me a lot of leeway in how much I care about space and time considerations and usually like the focus to be on the current moment.
aka pacing and position?
 

gorice

Hero
A problem with this whole discussion of whether the books actually teach you the game are missing a major element - contact with reality.

As in - folks, under the 5e books, the player base has apparently grown significantly. Like, to levels not even seen in the 80s. This is reality.

Either the books (or starter products) do the job way better than some people think, or there is no practical need for them to. One way or another, folks are learning to play.
That excludes the possibility that they're learning not to play -- watching 'actual play' streams, passively consuming products, and showing up for weekly games where they quietly absorb the story fed to them.

In any case, it's often entirely possible for people to bumble along with whatever is at hand. That doesn't mean that they wouldn't be better served by tools fit for purpose.
 
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gorice

Hero
I think you are offloading alot onto the term 'main storyteller' that isn't really there. To contrast, I would be comfortable describing myself in my Blades in the Dark game as the main story teller (I'm the GM). But that doesn't mean the players are just along for the ride that is my story or that I've predefined exactly how everything should go. It just means I'm providing most of the detail about the world.
We could go over the textual detail. My opinion is that the book (which I have indeed read) guides the reader toward the assumption that the DM should be railroading their players to some extent, but also hedges quite a bit.

I'll challenge this as well. What is fiat? Because I think most of D&D is based on judgement calls, but judgement calls are not the same as fiat.
I didn't mean anything special by it: just a snap decision, without anything to go by except the established fiction. I think all roleplaying involves judgement calls; that's fine with me. It's that procedure thing I keep banging on about: a lot of other games (including older editions of D&D) have mechanical or procedural prompts occasionally to mix things up. Otherwise, in a game like D&D where the situation is mostly in the DM's head, there is a risk of things becoming opaque or predetermined. Or just boring.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Okay. What does that mean? Because one person's more concise is another person's gamerspeak. It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. Obviously everything can be improved and hopefully the anniversary issue will have some improvement. But there's only so much that can be done, at a certain point a new DM just has to jump in.
I will say that I'm not sure if throwing our hands up in the air and declaring, "There's no point trying to improve because there's only so much that can be done," is an entirely helpful or productive route. However, as you are the measure of all things, including what makes something "good quality," maybe it would be better if I ask you and let you answer: What would make the GM advice in the DMG more cogent and useful for you? I will not accept "doing nothing" as an answer, because I want to force you to state what you would change and how you would change it.

Again, when we are talking about how games sometimes have to do more with less, let's also consider other TTRPGs. D&D has conditioned some people into believing that a core set of books are part of play: i.e., PHB, DMG, and MM. But other TTRPGs don't get to spread their content out in three books that explain the rules. They get one book and only one book. They get one book only to explain the player and GM content, plus monster stat blocks and setting materials. BitD does not get a PHB, DMG, and MM. It gets BitD, a single 386 page book. So these books must be cogent about how to play the game, their play practices, and how to run the game.

Imagine, if you will then, that the contents of the 5e PHB, DMG, and MM all had to be condensed into a book that was 368 pages. How would you write the GM section in such a book with far more limited space to do so? How would you cleanly and cogently present being a GM?

Here I would also ask that you consider what it would be like if you were a first time GM. What would make the DMG a better quality product for a new GM?

Finally, do you think that the upcoming One D&D DMG will not incorporate a lot of the feedback that they have been getting over the past 8 years?

Do you not think that it's telling that we have been told that Chris Perkins will write the new DMG and that he is explicitly doing so so that its contents are more accessible for newcomers?

Cleary, from my end at least, WotC believes that there is more that could be done to help new GMs or even better support the ones they have. But who knows, maybe Chris Perkins's new DMG will spend 300 pages accusing the readers of being jackasses and bad GMs who can't be helped by anything he writes.

I also saw people screw it up substantially back then. So the fact some people can work their way through it is not an argument against having guidance. It just privledges people who happen to work it out themselves.

(Even back then I'd argue most people who didn't make a complete dog's breakfast of it did so because of oral tradition through other GMs rather than that could work out how to do it right completely on their own).
It's fundamentally Survivor Bias because there are a lot of GMs (or even potential GMs) who failed without good guidance. We really only see the ones who made it and conclude that the advice must be "good enough" while ignoring the ones who didn't make it and asking how we could have helped them make it.
 
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pemerton

Legend
This is why the text matters, best practices and GMing advice and all of that. It absolutely informs the way people play.
Suppose that a player declares (as their character) "I look for <X>". In typical D&D play, X could be a secret door in a seemingly dead-end wall, or an alchemist with a potion for sale, or a smith to reforge the broken magic-sword the PC has found, or a portal to another world, or any of a myriad of things that D&D adventurers hope to find to help them pursue their adventurous goals.

What do the rulebooks say about how a GM should respond to this action declaration?

Moldvay Basic says the following that's relevant (B3-B4, B21, B52-B53):

It is the DM's job to prepare the setting for each adventure before the game begins. . . . The dungeon is carefully mapped on paper . . . At the start of the game, the players enter the dungeon and the DM describes what the characters can see. . . . As details of the dungeon are revealed, the player characters will meet "monsters" which they will have to avoid, talk to, or fight. . . .

A secret door is any door that is hidden or concealed. . . . Any character has a 1 in 6 chance of finding a secret door . . . The DM should only check for finding a secret door if the player says that the character is searching for one and searching for in in the correct area. . . .

To "stock" a dungeon means to fill in the general details, such as monsters, treasure, and traps. Special monsters should first be placed in the appropriate room along with special treasures. The remaining rooms can be stocked as the GM wishes. . . . Besides the monsters which live in rooms, characters may encounter monsters which wander about the dungeon. . . . At the end of every 2 turns, the DM should check for Wandering Monsters. To do so, roll 1d6: a result of 1 indicates that the party will encounter a Wandering Monster in the next turn. . . . Wandering Monsters may be determined at random or selected by the DM.​

There is an example of building a dungeon - both mapping and stocking on pages B55-B57. These reinforce the implications of the text I've quoted, that the GM's job is to do all this stuff as part of prep. And there is an example of play on pp B59-B60 that also makes some things clear: the example begins by saying that the PCs have "discovered the trap door in room 4" of the example dungeon. There are lots of examples of the players declaring "I look for <X>"-type actions: We search for secret doors. We search for traps. We look for hidden compartments in the box. Is there any movement when I prod the rags with my sword? There are also lots of examples of the players declaring similar but more open-ended actions: What do we see when we look down the corridors? Is the breeze strong enough to put out our torches? We listen at the door - what do we hear? Do we understand the voice? What does the room look like? it is pretty clear in all these cases that the GM is relying on their dungeon map and key, plus the wandering monster procedure, to resolve those action declarations. The second, open-ended category we might think of as invitations from the players to the GM to elaborate the framing of the scene. What's interesting is that the first, "I look for <X>" category also get treated somewhat similarly: the GM is entitled to elaborate the scene as including "You don't find any traps", for instance, based simply on their map and key, without that being anchored to any player-side action resolution process.

I'm not going to provide quotes from Gygax's AD&D rulebooks, but - unsurprisingly - they contain similar sort of material. The advice in the PHB on Successful Adventures takes as an obvious premise that a big part of playing the game is learning the contents of the GMs map and key. (It's not as clear as Moldvay - who on p B4 says "Eventually, the DM's map and the players' map will look more or less alike - but it's still pretty clear.) The DMG contains a sample dungeon, which like Moldvay's illustrates how the GM draws a map and then stocks the dungeon contents, including doors (both overt and secret), monsters, traps, etc. There is a discussion of listening at doors, and searching for secret doors, that is similar to Moldvay's. And there are rules for wandering monsters, discussed in the Introduction and in Appendix C.

The 4e rulebooks are not as clear as this. For instance, the following is a very good observation about skill challenges, posted by LostSoul on these boards a little over 9 years ago:

My guess is that skill challenges work better when they are resolving an abstract situation.

If you have all the details of the situation nailed down, then it's difficult to change those details based on the result of a skill check. You can't introduce a secret door, a wandering monster, or a frayed rope if you know there are none of those things before you start the challenge. That means you can't introduce those elements if the PC succeeds or fails on their check.

If the situation is abstract - and almost all social conflicts are abstract, since the DM can't possibly know all the details of an NPC's personality - then there's a lot of room for the DM to react to the skill checks of the PCs and prompt the players for more.

The abstract situation allows the DM to directly address the player's reason for playing the game, as telegraphed through their PC's actions and build. If the situation is too detailed to allow the DM to do that, then it fails.
But the rulebooks don't discuss this. Page 112 of the DMG is headed "Mapping the Site" and begins"Once you've come up with a concept for your adventure setting, you probably need a map" and it illustrates all the typical dungeon mapping symbols that when it was published went back 30 years and now go back 40. The next page (p 113) talks about "The Map Key" and gives advice to write up rooms basically the same as Moldvay's.

How is this approach to map-and-key to be used in resolving a skill challenge (say, to flee from pursuing monsters)? How does it fit with the advice about "saying 'yes'" found on p 28 of the DMG (and further elaborated in the DMG2):

As often as possible, take what the players give you and build on it. . . . Take it and weave it back into your story without railroading them into a fixed plotline.

For example, your characters are searching for a lich who has been sending wave after wave of minions at them. One of the players asks if the town they are in has a guild of wizards . . . [that] would have records or histories that mention this lich's activities in the past . . . That wasn't a possibility you'd anticipated, and you don't have anything prepared for it. . . .

Imagine you say there is a wizard's guild. You can select wizards' names from your prepared lists. You could pull together a skill challenge encounter . . . Instead of cutting off possibilities, you've made your campaign richer, and instead of frustrating your players, you've rewarded them for thinking in creative and unexpected ways.​

In this respect, 4e is not so much incomplete as over-determined in an inconsistent fashion. It sets out two modes of resolving action declarations - map-and-key play, which centres the players triggering revelations from the GM's notes; and player-driven skill challenge-type play, which focuses on stakes and the success or failure of declared actions as the way of resolving "I look for <X>"-type actions.

I think the incoherence of 4e, especially when compared to the straightforwardness of the classic D&D texts, is an out-and-out weakness. It makes it harder to play the game. And I don't think pointing to "invisible rulebooks" really helps here, because for most RPGers those invisible rulebooks centre map-and-key resolution, given it's long tradition in RPGing.

A RPG which wants to offer a different approach from that tradition really needs to spell out its procedures. The two clearest examples I can think of are both Vincent Baker games: In A Wicked Age and Apocalypse World. As far as "I look for <X>-type actions", they have clear procedures in both cases (the former is consensual-with-GM-chairing/leading; the latter is based on a soft/hard move structure related in part to whether the basic move "Read a charged situation" is triggered).

But an interesting alternative to map-and-key resolution of "I look for <X>" dates all the way back to the earliest days of RPGing: 1977 Classic Traveller. Its Streetwise skill reads (Book 1 p 15):

The individual is acquainted with the ways of local subcultures (which tend to be the same every-where in human society), and thus is capable of dealing with strangers without alienating them. . . .

Close-knit sub-cultures (such as some portions of the lower classes, and trade groups such as workers, the underworld, etc) generally reject contact with strangers or unknown elements. Streetwise expertise allows contact for the purposes of obtaining information, hiring persons, purchasing contraband or stolen goods, etc.

The referee should set the throw required to obtain any item specified by the players (for example, the name of an official willing to issue licenses without hassle = 5+, the location of high quality guns at a low price = 9+). DMs based on streetwise should be allowed at +1 per level. No expertise DM = −5.​

This is clear text. Though at odds with map-and-key-based invisible rulebooks. It would be interesting to see how different these discussions would be if the Traveller approach, rather than the classic D&D approach, had become predominant across the hobby.
 

Aldarc

Legend
A problem with this whole discussion of whether the books actually teach you the game are missing a major element - contact with reality.

As in - folks, under the 5e books, the player base has apparently grown significantly. Like, to levels not even seen in the 80s. This is reality.

Either the books (or starter products) do the job way better than some people think, or there is no practical need for them to. One way or another, folks are learning to play.
I would argue that the growth is not necessarily entirely equal in certain areas. It seems to me that the PC player base has grown at a higher rate than the GM player base, though both have undoubtedly grown. And learning how to play as a PC player and learning how to play as a GM player are, IMHO, two separate skill sets with differing learning curves.

Again, the fact that the OneD&D DMG will conscientiously be written by Chris Perkins so it is more accessible for newcomers is a pretty telling symptom of this issue. So that does suggest to me, though your opinions may obviously vary, that they are seeing some "contact with reality" issues when it comes to folks learning how to GM, especially newcomers. Given the amount of data that WotC acquired over the 8 years of growth, feedback, and testing, I suspect that this move is not one that comes out of left field but, instead, is a recognized sore spot, as supported by their data.
 
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Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
We could go over the textual detail. My opinion is that the book (which I have indeed read) guides the reader toward the assumption that the DM should be railroading their players to some extent, but also hedges quite a bit.

So I'm going to address this because this seems like a common misconception. It reminds me that another poster in another thread made the comment that everyone agrees that the Dragonlance and the Hickman revolution were bad.

Look, on this forum, which has a fair number of OSR/FKR types, a fair number of modern D&D types, and a fair number of Fiction First/Documentary Now! types talking, you'll probably get a decent amount of agreement that "railroading" and "illusionism" and "fudging" are bad, m'kay?

And yet, I think people are doing an awful lot of projecting about their own personal playstyles. The last poll here, on enworld (which I think skews the results), showed that people were split 50/50 on fudging. "Illusionism" and "railroading" has been a component of D&D and RPGs ever since Simbalist was advocating for it in the late 70s (and certainly was before that). The rise of the so-called Hickman revolution (and, for that matter, VtM) was because groups were playing in that style.

If you look at how people actually play D&D, there are a fair number that employ AND enjoy elements of railroading and illusionism, regardless of your preferences. And it's for that reason that the DMG is written the way it is; it is not written to prescriptive, telling everyone how Gorice plays the game, and instructing them that this is the way.

Instead, it attempts to be descriptive, describing how people play, and giving the DM options as to how to run the game, and usually explaining why different approaches work (or don't work).

This is the whole point of multiple threads we have had; there isn't just one way to play, or to run the games. You might not like railroading and illusionism, and I might agree with you. And yet, there are tables that happily play using those techniques.

The reason you don't understand the "hedging" is because you fundamentally don't agree with the approach taken by the DMG, and by D&D overall. Which is totally fine! But as others repeatedly point out- the approach works. This is the most successful edition of D&D ever. It has onboarded more new players than any prior edition (I believe- I don't feel like digging up stats). For various interrelated reasons, it is accessible and successful. It is bizarre that people complain that it fails in bringing in new players in any manner. At a certain point, you have to ask ... who do we believe, the theory of what should be in the DMG, or our lying eyes?
 

Imaro

Legend
That excludes the possibility that they're learning not to play -- watching 'actual play' streams, passively consuming products, and showing up for weekly games where they quietly absorb the story fed to them.

In any case, it's often entirely possible for people to bumble along with whatever is at hand. That doesn't mean that they wouldn't be better served by tools fit for purpose.
And this is the problem with the discussion... all evidence points to 5e being learned, played and run by more people than any other edition of D&D... yet anyone can go well that might not be the case because..."reasons"...Without anything whatsoever to support the assertion.
 

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