*Why* full round metamagic for socerers?

[Hypersmurf]

And this is important why?

I have no problem with a magic item being more useful for certain classes than others.

A Pearl of Power is useful to a wizard or cleric, who prepares spells; not useful to a sorcerer, who casts spontaneously; and not useful to a fighter, who doesn't have spells at all.

A suit of magic plate mail is useful to a fighter or cleric; less useful to a barbarian, who loses a class ability and is not proficient; and not useful to a monk or wizard, who lose key class abilities (or incur ASF) and are not proficient.

But the metamagic rod, under the FAQ's reading, is useful to a wizard, who uses it to apply a metamagic feat on the fly to a spell not prepared in a metamagic form in advance; and less useful to a sorcerer, who uses it to apply a metamagic feat on the fly to a spell not prepared in a metamagic form in advance.

And I can't accept that this makes sense.

-Hyp.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Arguably, anyone who introduces the 'sudden metamagic' feats into their game does more to damage the wizard-sorcerer metamagic balance than using the metamagic rods, since they give any wizard the ability to spontaneously metamagic a few spells when they really need to.

 

[starwed]

No one's brought up Quicken Spell yet.

I'd have to say that this is the reason why sorcs take a full round action; to deny them access to quicken spell. Losing a move action isn't going to hurt with most metamagic feats, but completely preventing Quicken is a key balancing reason, I think.

Using core only, a high level wizard can have a much higher offensive spell output, all because they can quicken their low level spells. On the one hand, if sorcs could do this too, it probably would be too powerful. On the other hand, completely preventing Quicken for sorcs kind of kicks them in the balls.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I have no problem with a magic item being more useful for certain classes than others.

A Pearl of Power is useful to a wizard or cleric, who prepares spells; not useful to a sorcerer, who casts spontaneously; and not useful to a fighter, who doesn't have spells at all.

A suit of magic plate mail is useful to a fighter or cleric; less useful to a barbarian, who loses a class ability and is not proficient; and not useful to a monk or wizard, who lose key class abilities (or incur ASF) and are not proficient.

But the metamagic rod, under the FAQ's reading, is useful to a wizard, who uses it to apply a metamagic feat on the fly to a spell not prepared in a metamagic form in advance; and less useful to a sorcerer, who uses it to apply a metamagic feat on the fly to a spell not prepared in a metamagic form in advance.

And I can't accept that this makes sense.

-Hyp.

I agree with what you are saying, but don't forget that in addition to this, both classes get 2 additional benefits from the rod. It frees up a feat (because the rod is providing it) and it doesn't cost them a higher level spell slot. So the only advantage the Wizard is getting is the ability to use it on the fly (like a Sorc) but NOT pay the full-round casting cost (like a Sorc). So when you say I have no problem with a magic item being more useful for certain classes than others. but then you go on to point out how this magic item IS more powerful for a Wizard than a Sorcerer (in only 1 area), aren't you contradicting yourself?

I beleive the point you are trying to make is that the rules for it (the mechanics, if you will) should be universal for all casters, regardless if you are a Wizard, Sorc, Bard, Cleric, what have you. But why? The fact that the Sorc using the rod uses a different mechanic (casting time) than the Wizard IS the balancing factorTM.

I guess from this ruling, we can see that "applying a metamagic feat to a spell while casting on the fly" is not synonomous with "increased casting time" like we all assumed it was (and is usually the case when a Sorcerer does it on their own).

 

[KarinsDad]

But the metamagic rod, under the FAQ's reading, is useful to a wizard, who uses it to apply a metamagic feat on the fly to a spell not prepared in a metamagic form in advance; and less useful to a sorcerer, who uses it to apply a metamagic feat on the fly to a spell not prepared in a metamagic form in advance.

And I can't accept that this makes sense.

You might be looking at it from a rules POV.

Look at it from the character's POV. It makes sense that the first metamagic rod was created by a Wizard so that he could do something that was previously allowed only to Sorcerers. In this scenario, it also makes sense that the Wizard would craft an item that is more useful for him than for a Sorcerer.

 

[KarinsDad]

No one's brought up Quicken Spell yet.

I'd have to say that this is the reason why sorcs take a full round action; to deny them access to quicken spell. Losing a move action isn't going to hurt with most metamagic feats, but completely preventing Quicken is a key balancing reason, I think.

I think you hit this on the head and it is the main balancing factor.

Spontaneous Casting: Strong

Spontaneous Metamagic: Very Strong

Spontaneous Quicken and not just once per day like Sudden Quicken or 3 times per day like Metamagic Rod Quicken, but virtually every round: Priceless

 

[Jack Simth]

I think you hit this on the head and it is the main balancing factor.

Spontaneous Casting: Strong

Spontaneous Metamagic: Very Strong

Spontaneous Quicken and not just once per day like Sudden Quicken or 3 times per day like Metamagic Rod Quicken, but virtually every round: Priceless

You don't really want a Sorcerer able to pound out two save-or-lose spells a round, every round, through four two-round combats a day. And a High-level Sorcerer with an effective Quicken COULD.

 

[Terath Ninir]

WotC hates those dirty little sorcerers, yes they do my precious. Hates them hates them hates them! Nasty little sorcerers don't need 3rd level spells and deserve to die while they cast their spells! Nasty, vile little sorcerers!!!!!!

 

[airwalkrr]

Applying metamagic spontaneously is a powerful ability that adds a LOT of flexibility to a character. Part of the limitation of spontaneous casters is that they are not very flexible. That's why.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I guess from this ruling, we can see that "applying a metamagic feat to a spell while casting on the fly" is not synonomous with "increased casting time" like we all assumed it was (and is usually the case when a Sorcerer does it on their own).

But it's the reason given for the increased casting time.

As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. But because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell.

It's not that a/ sorcerers and bards take more time to cast a metamagic spell, and b/ sorcerers and bards apply metamagic feats on the spot to spells not prepared in a metamagic form in advance.

It's that sorcerers and bards take more time to cast a metamagic spell because they apply metamagic feats on the spot to spells not prepared in a metamagic form in advance.

One causes the other. And because a sorcerer using a rod still takes extra time, we know that the rod doesn't let you get around the fact that applying metamagic feats on the spot to spells not prepared in a metamagic form in advance causes an increase in casting time.

If the ruling was that applying a metamagic feat on the fly to a spell not prepared in advance caused an increased casting time, the FAQ ruling would be consistent; a sorcerer using the rod to apply Empower to Magic Missile is applying it to a spell not prepared in advance, while a wizard using the rod to apply Empower to Magic Missile is applying it to a spell prepared in advance.

But that's not the rule, and the wizard is using the rod to apply Empower to a spell not prepared in a metamagic form in advance. So he should suffer the increased casting time, just like the sorcerer.

-Hyp.