Why is flight considered a game breaker?

[I'm A Banana]

It is nearly impossible because flying doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Nothing does. If "existing in a vacuum" is a prerequisite for "having balanced rules," then it's impossible to have balanced rules for anything.

This is a fantasy game, and there are iconic tropes like the knight in shining armor and big, strong, stupid ogres. Being iconic, these tropes need to have value, and the concept of many of these things doesn't really allow them to deal with flight very well. The knight can pull out a bow and the Ogre can throw a spear or rock, but in the big picture that really isn't what they do, and certainly not what they do best.

...and flying witches, and bird-people, and giant eagles, and pegasi, and...

What makes a "big stupid ogre" trope more important to support than a "pegasi-mounted warrior" trope?

I'm of the mind that the two can coexist, just like magic missiles and crossbows do, we just maybe need to account for flight in a way that the game hasn't done particularly well to date.

I mean, the game certainly values flight. Flight exists in all editions of D&D. So do ogres. They're not inherently incompatible.

One of the iconic abilities of the D&D Rogue is the ability to climb walls. Flight all by itself completely trumps the ability of Rogues to Climb Walls.

Well, since a stepladder can trump that ability, I don't think that ability is very significant. I beat an "iconic" D&D rogue every time I get something out of a high cupboard. I am a big fat hero.

Climbing walls is very niche.

Cheap and accessible flight changes the game at a fundamental level, either devaluing core fantasy concepts or forcing you to tack on solutions to flight that don't really belong.

Climbing walls is not a core fantasy concept, and nothing is inherent to big dumb ogres that makes them incapable of swatting down flying characters (King Kong did quite a good job, even though he eventually lost).

Impossible you say? Nothing is impossible with science!

...or in this case, with good game design.

Heck, I've mentioned one possible way of addressing it already. It's probably not great for most D&D games, but it's clearly not impossible.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Then its a matter of making sure it has the appropriate cost, and a lot of people in this thread think Flight was way too cheap in 3E.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Then its a matter of making sure it has the appropriate cost, and a lot of people in this thread think Flight was way too cheap in 3E.

Sure. Though flight ain't exactly "expensive" in 4e (though it is generally much more limited, and reserved only for high levels, so it's rarer).

Think we can come up with some limitations that 90% of possible enemies probably can have some counter for?

I'm pretty happy saying "if your character takes damage, they fall down," meaning anything with a ranged attack can knock a character to the ground, and any monster group with at least one ranged attack can deal with fliers (as I mentioned upthread, a group of melee-only brutes probably can't deal with ANY highly mobile characters, flying or not).

Does that solution have problems I'm not seeing?

 

[Leatherhead]

Errr... wouldn't they just cast 'Cure Moderate Wounds' instead? I believe you are failing to understand the test.

Bah oversimplifications. The point is people would still cast healing spells even if they were all pushed back a level. That doesn't mean they should be.

Alter Self is a second level spell and gets you in the air. It stands to reason that there could be a 3rd level spell that was better than Alter Self (for example, average manueverability, higher speed, but still winged flight) which people might cast in preference to Alter Self. The only reason that they don't, is the jump between the options at 2nd level and Fly is enormous. Fly gives you good manueverability, high speed, and stable (wingless) flight. That's awesome.

Alter self does so much more that even if you couldn't fly it would still be picked for other reasons. Saying that it is part of a "flight progression" is absurd.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Well, since a stepladder can trump that ability, I don't think that ability is very significant. I beat an "iconic" D&D rogue every time I get something out of a high cupboard. I am a big fat hero.
.

Funny. A terrible example, but still funny.

If this is the only use of climb, then jump is just as valuable.

Ever try to use your stepladder to get to the 10th floor window?

 

[Stalker0]

That shouldn't be impossible.

Flight is always going to be a powerful ability, but there are ways to nerf the more significant problems.

1) You can't attack while flying
2) Your AC is reduced by 5 while flying.
3) Your carrying capacity is reduced to 1/4 normal when flying.

With these rules in place you could have a flying player at level 1 and eliminate some of the big abuses. His ability to scout around and avoid terrain is still very strong, but he is no longer an unstoppable god of combat.

 

[pemerton]

In fact, the published rules very much get in the way of this.

<snip>

But the key difference between that and what the 4e team ultimately came up with is that the 4e design team came up with the idea of what amounts to a subsystem with an entry point and an exit point, and, while within the subsystem the rules no longer seem to interact with either the game world or the rest of the game rules themselves. Running a 'skill challenge' for me meant running a situation where skill ranks were important, but for which there was many entry and many exit points and each die roll equated to some quantifiable game state. The 4e skill challenge seems to only have quantifiable game states at the beginning and end of the skill challange, and everything within is simply a mechanical state of the challenge.

I don't think that your last sentence is consistent with what the design is intended to achieve, but it is a problem that can arise if the context of the challenge and its possible permutations are not well-developed and spelled out. Resolving the challenge should be like an extended contest in HeroQuest, I think, or even like resolving a conflict in The Dying Earth, but not much guidance is being given. DMG2 gives some examples, but mostly pertaining to "geographic" challenges rather than social ones.

Like, make the first player's choice binding on the whole party. "I fly to the top of the cliff" means the next roll of the skill challenge becomes about getting to the top after the boulder rollers are alerted. "I go the long way around" means the next roll is about enduring the hot hot sun and prickly bushes. "I climb" means the whole party hits the cliff face and needs Insight checks or Use Rope to keep making progress.

This is the sort of thing I have in mind. I find it easier for "geographic" challenges like climbing the cliff, than for social challenges. Not to say that I can't do it - but some guidance, especially from module writers, would make it easier.

 

[I'm A Banana]

If this is the only use of climb, then jump is just as valuable.

Ever try to use your stepladder to get to the 10th floor window?

Ya missed the spot where I clarified my hyperbole: "Climbing walls is very niche."

1) You can't attack while flying
2) Your AC is reduced by 5 while flying.
3) Your carrying capacity is reduced to 1/4 normal when flying.

As always, Stalker0, you're a god.

How would these three interact with the idea of "take damage and fall out of the sky?"

With these rules in place you could have a flying player at level 1 and eliminate some of the big abuses. His ability to scout around and avoid terrain is still very strong, but he is no longer an unstoppable god of combat.

I think it's OK for flight to have a solid use, but "combat god" and "making everyone else feel useless" are two big things that I'd hope to avoid with low-level flight.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

In regards to combat flight, consider the following:

As an effect, you gain immunity to melee attacks made by non flying creatures. What level ability/spell would you consider this by itself? Compare this to existing defensive spells and abilities.

 

[Ashtagon]

Based on this thread, I've made the following changes to my house version of fly:

* Target changed to self only.
* Movement rate changed to your normal land speed; more of an overpowered hovercraft than a superman-esque strike a pose and whoosh.
* Duration expires if you stop maintaining it with concentration.
* If it is dispelled or anti-magicked, you fall.
* If duration expires or you stop concentrating, a DC 15 Spellcraft check converts it to a feather fall; otherwise, you fall.
* Similar changes made to higher-level flight spells, mutatis mutandis.

This still keeps it useful as a utility spell, but it's no longer the get out of combat free card it was.