Why is flight considered a game breaker?

[Votan]

This 3e hate-fest is great and all, but I'm personally much more interested in figuring out a way to include flight from Level 1 in a way that doesn't hose DMs or Players, going forward, than I am in picking apart any given edition of D&D. Clearly, neither of the two extant versions get it quite right for me.

My take on it is that flight is a difficult ability to balance rsther than any hate for 3rd edition. Editions have tended to over or undershoot the ideal balance point. The issue with 4th edition is not that flight is unbalanced as being too good of an options -- it's that there is not a decent version of it available until the mid teens (and the useful versions I can recall off the top of my head require investing in a paragon path specifically to do so).

[It's like half-elves -- you can discuss many issues with balancing a half elef in AD&D or 2E that seem rather odd when the 3.0 PHB Half elf arrives on the scene; the issue is suddenly in the opposite direction]

If you really wanted to do flight from level 1 then you need to make it a non-combat ability. I'd likely do this with a fly skill (ala Pathfinder) with skill checks required to do combat maneavers while flying. Failure by more than a certain amount equals falling (so high level stunts can be tried by low level characters with risk). But I'd make sure that the standard action version doesn't have any risk of a fall by a marginally competent "bird-man".

The pathfinder SRD makes fly a dex skill and a class skill for wizard, sorcerer and druid. It has an armor check penalty. I'd jsut make some actiosn require skill checks:

1 handed weapon attack: DC 15
2 handed weapon attack: DC 20
Cast Spell: DC 15+ spell level

Fail by 10 or more and you fall. Fail by 5 or more and you are dazed next tunr (only a move action). Suddenly flying creatures are using javilins and not bows (nice for flavor). A 12 dex birdman with a first level investment (1 rank PF, 4 ranks D&D) can't fall on a 1 for throwing a spear.

I'd clarify that flying gives either a -5 or -10 penalty to stealth/move silently checks.

Mounts would make sense again. Casters would need to be high level to reliably use fly. Heck, the base PF rules with a DC 15 to hover are already doing nice things . . .

Those are the sorts of approaches that I'd think about making fly work from level 1.

 

[Celebrim]

Fly as a 1st level spell ability is possible. The obvious solution is to bump Levitate down to a 1st level spell, where it would arguably not be abusive.

I'm not particularly happy with flight as a 1st level ability because I'd prefer to have a few levels where gravity can't be overcome by brute force. Levitate basically replaces a climb check and elimenates the need for specialized equipment, so its not so bad and is a reasonable first level problem solving solution. True flight just constrains things too much at low levels.

However, a first level true flight spell would look something like.

1) Full round casting time.
2) Duration of minutes/caster level.
3) Range is personal, target is 'you'.
4) Poor manueverability.
5) Spell effect summons phantasmal/force wings that lift the character. This is winged flight, and the caster requires space equivalent to a creature two size categories larger. Makes noise similar to walking on ground. This is an unstable platform, equivalent to riding a horse in terms of spell casting or penalties to missile fire.
6) Flight speed same as spellcaster's base ground speed.
7) Spell requires concentration to maintain. Caster is falling when spell ends or concentration is broken.

 

[CleverNickName]

I like this one. I might move the spell up to 4th level and see what happens.

We did this, and it does what it was intended to do. PCs have to wait until 7th level to get in the air, and it makes potions and magic items a little more expensive. That's about it. The biggest boon is that it gives the DM a couple more levels before pits, moats, and rope bridges become obsolete.

I like the idea of the spell ending suddenly, and having a random duration. But this only amounts to a "flight tax" for spellcasters: Maximize Spell is already a must-have feat, and rings of feather falling will become the Hottest New Fashion Accessory for Sorcerers. Nothing really changes.

I'm leaning toward removing the spell altogether, and replacing it with single-use items and winged mounts. But as others have pointed out, it isn't as simple as that. There are tons of ways to make a character fly--everything from polymorphing and wild shape, to magical devices like flying carpets and brooms. Magical flight is hard-wired into the d20 system.

So I'm sort of stuck...and following this thread quite closely, looking for advice and ideas. I don't want flying superhero-style characters, but I don't want to completely redesign the game. And honestly, sometimes my adventures require flight.

 

[Derren]

We did this, and it does what it was intended to do. PCs have to wait until 7th level to get in the air, and it makes potions and magic items a little more expensive. That's about it. The biggest boon is that it gives the DM a couple more levels before pits, moats, and rope bridges become obsolete.

How about accepting that moats, pits and rope bridges aren't a obstacle to mid level adventurers?
How about designing the world with D&D rules and abilities in mind instead of doing a 0815 mediveal with magic addon?

 

[CleverNickName]

How about accepting that moats, pits and rope bridges aren't a obstacle to mid level adventurers?
How about designing the world with D&D rules and abilities in mind instead of doing a 0815 mediveal with magic addon?

You seem to have missed the point. The thing is, I want moats, pits, and rope bridges to remain obstacles at all times, not just at low levels. And I want a "0815 mediveal with magic addon." I like my game world the way it is; I'm just having trouble fitting magical flight into it. So any advice that would help me accomplish this would be very appreciated.

 

[Derren]

You seem to have missed the point. The thing is, I want moats, pits, and rope bridges to remain obstacles at all times, not just at low levels. And I want a "0815 mediveal with magic addon." I like my game world the way it is; I'm just having trouble fitting magical flight into it. So any advice that would help me accomplish this would be very appreciated.

Then I suggest to play a different system than D&D (HeroQuest? GURPS?) because there are so many other abilities besides flight which makes the D&D system unsuitable for standard mediveal worlds with a bit of magic. (Raise Dead, Invisibility, AOE spells, teleportation,...)

 

[Garthanos]

A Witches broom flight is completely doable as a mounted flight it might be a level 5 mount. (yes you can use mounts when you are below there level)

But if we are doing witches I want more.

I want brooms as implements (they are not just for flying)

The Witches flight ritual using flying ointment that I just designed for 4e costs 25gp and lasts 12 hours if you dont wear even basic clothing. (ie no armor you coat your skin and clothing causes it to wear out very fast)... and could be used for overland flight speed if you wanted. Its a level 4 ritual with a 5 minute casting time. It has the some space requirement and is boosted if you have a broom implement... otherwise may be slightly slow (Pick your favorite Arcane attribute modifier as the basis) +2 if you have the broom implement and +1 per bonus on your magic implement.

 

[CleverNickName]

Then I suggest to play a different system than D&D (HeroQuest? GURPS?) because there are so many other abilities besides flight which makes the D&D system unsuitable for standard mediveal worlds with a bit of magic. (Raise Dead, Invisibility, AOE spells, teleportation,...)

You might be right, but I am not ready to accept defeat just yet. D20 is a very robust game system with lots of adaptability...there has to be a "lower-magic" way to play it.

The best idea I've found to accomplish the style of play I am looking for, is to cap character advancement at 6th level (per the E6 houserules.) Fly is less of a problem when it only lasts 6 minutes, tops. It still bugs me, though.

 

[Dausuul]

For the combat aspects of flight, I think I would focus on requiring Balance checks (or Fly checks if you want to make it a distinct skill) to not fall under various circumstances:

• When you take damage (DC of check based on amount of damage taken).
• When you cast a spell (DC dependent on spell level).
• When you make an attack (DC might be fixed in 3E; in 4E, DC would depend on the level of the attack power).

Then eliminate feather fall. Now, not only is falling a distinct possibility when using flight in a combat situation, but if you want to fly high enough to evade enemy ranged attacks, you're risking death or severe injury if you miss a check and fall.

To address the non-combat issues (the "+100 to Stealth, Climb, and Jump" problem): Have all forms of flight available to PCs involve wings. If you cast a fly spell, you don't fly like Superman; you sprout wings instead. Then impose the following restrictions on winged flight:

• It's noisy. Stealth checks are impossible while flying. Maybe while gliding.
• It requires room. A non-flying creature that sprouts wings goes up one size category.
• No hovering. In general, I avoid imposing complicated restrictions on flight - it makes combat too much hassle - but I think this one is manageable: You have to move your speed horizontally every round while airborne (end the round [speed] squares away from where you started), or you fall.
• As others have suggested, cut all your carried weight limits (light encumbrance, heavy encumbrance, max load, whatever) to one-quarter normal while flying.

 

[Kafen]

We did this, and it does what it was intended to do. PCs have to wait until 7th level to get in the air, and it makes potions and magic items a little more expensive. That's about it. The biggest boon is that it gives the DM a couple more levels before pits, moats, and rope bridges become obsolete.

I like the idea of the spell ending suddenly, and having a random duration. But this only amounts to a "flight tax" for spellcasters: Maximize Spell is already a must-have feat, and rings of feather falling will become the Hottest New Fashion Accessory for Sorcerers. Nothing really changes.

I'm leaning toward removing the spell altogether, and replacing it with single-use items and winged mounts. But as others have pointed out, it isn't as simple as that. There are tons of ways to make a character fly--everything from polymorphing and wild shape, to magical devices like flying carpets and brooms. Magical flight is hard-wired into the d20 system.

So I'm sort of stuck...and following this thread quite closely, looking for advice and ideas. I don't want flying superhero-style characters, but I don't want to completely redesign the game. And honestly, sometimes my adventures require flight.

My main focus is the fly spell. At this time, it's the only real thing that I worry about. Most of the other flight methods are self limiting. I suspect that limiting it to 4th level without changing other things makes it simple to test.

Anyways, I am following the thread like you for ideas. I am torn between raising it up a level and converting fly to a spell with DC checks to reach 'greater' tiers of effects. I forget who brings it up, but Fly as a skill concept appeals to me, too. *not sure who started it first*