Why is Palladium so ant-d20?

[Staffan]

Granted, there may be some ego involved. After all, before d20, Palladium's Megaversal System was the only d20-based multi-genre rules system.

TORG was released in 1990 (or maybe 1991), is entirely d20-based, and is a much superior system for multi-genre gaming (because it includes rules that makes powerful stuff likely to not work in places that are weak in that area - high-power spells are likely to fail in the "normal" areas, and guns are likely to fail in the fantasy places). Though you had to filter the d20 roll through a table to get a "bonus number" to add to your skill, which some people consider a bit kludgy.

 

[skippy_the_witch]

For many years, before the release of 3.0, I bought most of the rifts books as they came out. I loved the fluff, concepts, and artwork. BUT, during that same time period, I also NEVER gamed, and have never found anybody who has been able to competently run a palladium game (then again, to be fair, I also wasn't looking very hard). From my very first look at Rifts, I knew there was no way I was ever going to attempt to run such a system.

Years later, and along comes D&D 3.0, which I bought the PHB mostly out of curiosity. The later concept of the OGL and SRD also helped me like this system, but it was the release of Perpetrated Press's Arsenal and Factory books, some of the best designed stuff on technomagic (not technology with magic but magic as technology) I had ever seen, and I just had to buy and use this. For the first time in a decade and a half, I started running a game again, and many gaming products later (RPGNOW is NOT my friend, or at least friend of my wallet), have the beginnings of a homebrew that my players seem to like. The annoying thing is not being able to utilize such simple DM aids as NPC lists and the like, as they take more modification and time than creating them from scratch ends up being.

Rifts also has some wonderful technomagic and my homebrew is psuedo post apocalyptic technomagic campaign that shares many similarities to the Rifts world. Had Rifts had an easier rules set or had d20, I don't doubt for a moment that I would instead be running a d20 Rifts game rather than my homebrew. The same held true with the original White Wolf Vampire/Werewolf/Mage, which we all loved the background of, but hated the rules, and it wasn't until the gurps crossovers came out that we began a world of darkness campaign.

But, as much as I would like to see d20 Rifts, I also think that it would be a mistake on KS's part, that he would lose more long term customers than he would gain, for it has been my experience at cons and stuff that the Palladium players are usually power gamers of the most munchkiny sort who look down on d20 players, especially D&D, and would immediately jump ship if Palladium "borged out" and was assimilated into the d20 collective.

skippy
GM of The Cursed Earth

 

[Keeper of Secrets]

When I first started running a supers game back in the early 90's, I had bought the Palladium stuff and had everything all set to go. This was in college and I was working on the campaign during my summer break. About a week before I left for college I changed my mind, balked, and decided to run Villains & Vgilantes instead. I just felt that Palladium supers was kind of a mess comparred to the easy - overly easy - Villains & Vigilantes.

 

[The Traveler]

I think that the #3 of the RPG companies does not win anything by connecting itself to the #1.

Palladium isn't even close to #3. RIFTS doesn't have anywhere near the market penetration and distribution that GURPS has. Sembieda may like to think he's in command of the industry's #3 company, but RIFTS is a relic, and it'd take a significant revision and marketing campaign for it to be anything but a game for a niche of a niche of a niche. RIFTS fans are a very specialized market, and while they're incredibly loyal and keep Sembieda in his creature comforts, they're by no means a significant portion of the roleplaying public.

 

[Neo]

I have to admit I have bought LOTs of palladium books over the years from Palladium Fantasy, RIFTS, Robotech etc.. I did this for a number of reasons: Great Cover Art, Excellent Settings, Great Interior Art and so forth...being amongst them. There has however always been one stumbling block I have always faltered across whenevr I've tried running the games and that is this.

==The System Doesn't Work Well At All==

There are some serious issues with a number of facets of the game.. and the gap between SDC and MDC is perhaps one of the biggest. Balance between all the various O.C.C's and R.C.C's is another.

This stumbling block has been recurring and I've tried many times to run the games but the rules inevitably lead to the end of said games with my group agreeing wholeheartedly they just dont work and we move on to something else.

It is because of this that I stopped buying Palladiums books..

I dont really mind one way or the other what system Palladium use so long as it WORKS.. if they fixed the existing one GREAT, if not then USE another... but digging thier heels in and swearing blind anyone who says thier system doesnt work like me just doesnt get it as the system works fine is infuriating and frustrating... Do they not see that LOTS more people want to buy thier books if onyl they listen to thise "Customers" and address these issues.

Palladium may still have a loyal fanbase but I imagine it grows smaller with each new release as it just continues to drive home how nothing will change.

I real honest to goodness shame as thier settings and Ideas truely are first class.

 

[Particle_Man]

I have heard it said that one can use the Mutants and Masterminds system with the Rifts setting...but that is only a rumour...

 

[Psychic Warrior]

I have heard it said that one can use the Mutants and Masterminds system with the Rifts setting...but that is only a rumour...

I think your Cease & Desist order is in the mail right now...

Palladium is something that has always been at the fringe of my gaming experience (much like GURPS). The players of it I have met seemed to reveal in their 'edginess' in playing something most gamers avoid. They also really, really loved the term 'sheeple' - so cute (and hypocritical!)

 

[Von Ether]

There's a long-standing joke that Siembieda couldn't decide whether to rip off D&D or Runequest, so he hedged his bets and made a system that ripped off both of them.



Really, why? In this case, I can see Siembieda's logic. There's a glut of d20 products, and they're starting to gain a rep for low quality and saturation. Rifts has been selling well for ages. Besides, Rifts players love the inconsistent, über-munchkin nature of the system. (True story: a friend of mine was trying to get some other players to play Rifts using GURPS rules. The others told him that they liked using the Palladium system, precisely because it was such a kluge. It's part of the charm, apparently.)

I can testify to that.

I did a Marvel Super Heros SAGA conversion (where I finally realized one should convert over a concept, not straight numbers). Making PC was a 10-min. breeze and combats took like 15 mins. and were dramatic. The players hated it. They wanted all of those +3 and +10% bonuses.

From that ancedote, it seems some of the charm is in a similar vein to Champions. The pride of being able to kick much carnage via extensive knowledge and mastery of the rules.

 

[Desdichado]

I doubt going d20 would get him more money, in fact it would probably drive off the fans he does have and becasue of their reputaion I doubt that many people would switch over to them.

1) Drive off existing fans? I doubt it. It doesn't seem to have happened for AEG's house system games.

2) It's not about existing fans switching over, it's about picking up new players that wouldn't be playing RIFTS otherwise. Like me, for instance. Not that I'd be likely to play a d20 RIFTS either, but at least I'd be more likely, and people who actually are attracted to the setting but hate the rules (a fair amount of people, based only on my experience) would actually pick it up.

I think that the #3 of the RPG companies does not win anything by connecting itself to the #1.

3) Had Palladium been #3 in a long time? I'd wager that GURPS has long since passed them by, and will only continue to do so as Palladium becomes more and more marginalized based on Siembieda's "business acumen."

 

[Storm Raven]

White Wolf did not go towards d20 with its main lines, either.

You mean, aside from releasing something on the order of a dozen d20 books and piles of supplements to support their Scarred Lands setting?