Why Is the Cleric Unfun?

[Zweischneid]

I just don't see the alternative. I see a very binary situation: either a) the cleric heals and the fighter lives or b) the cleric doesn't heal and the fighter dies. Depend on the cleric's healing? Just out of curiosity, how many 15+ level games have you been a part in in which a healer was not a necessity? In all high level games I've been in (12th and up generally) a cleric refusing to heal would mean death and lots of it (TPKs all around!). In fact, in most games I've played in a cleric actively healing still means many deaths (I see 1 per 3 sessions, roughly, due to damage). And, these are MMI creatures. The MMs progressively get more dangerous.

I do see the alternative outside this binary situation. Change the system!

 

[ThirdWizard]

I do see the alternative outside this binary situation. Change the system!

Yes, which I agree with. I'm saying the 3.5 cleric is borked, so the system needs to be changed. There's no good alternative in 3.5, though.

 

[carmachu]

Probably because the spell was used previously to help the fighter resist about 40 points of fire damage in the previous combat, or will be used later to paralyze the main villain and allow the party to take him down. Alternately, that character should have used the potion of cure light or cure moderate wounds that he picked up previously, or had the cleric use the wand of cure light that he purchased for use, so that the cleric wouldn't have been taken advantage of. (I'm not talking about variants where there's little or no magic other than the spellcasters, I'm talking about "default" D&D as presented in the books.)

EXACTLY. Our last session, the one before, I used 2 of my 3 2nd level spells(only being 3rd level and all) to cast summon monster to summon monsters and pin in teh opposition. The had a water feature we couldnt get across and barricades along it to make it diffucult to get to them.....and they had ranged weapons. So...I used the spells intead of healing. It helped alot and gave the barbarian time to get around and get in there. Plus the AoO helped alot too.

Its a judgement call. One I wisely made. But it meant less healing later on....

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

In your campaigns, does NO ONE ever go: "You... you... saved my life! My whole life... has been meaningless! Thank you. Truly, Pelor's gifts are the light of the world."

Or is everyone screaming medic?

I tend to think that when you take the sidekick for granted, you're inevitably going to get a surly sidekick.

The same thing works in reverse though. That's why everyone in our adventuring parties has all realized that they need to equally respect one another.

The cleric realizes that his inability to protect the big, strong fighter means that the enemies aren't going to die quick enough and he's going to die.

The fighter realizes that his ability to be tough and deal lots of damage with his sword isn't good enough and that unless he gets healing almost every round, he'll die to.

And everyone realizes that without the wizard's damage(or a well placed spell to take an enemy out of the fight) the fighter will die before the enemies do. Everyone realizes that without the rogue's expertise they might not be able to open the locked doors, chests, cupboards, etc. They also might die to a random trap at any time.

Because of that, everyone in the party respects each other and does their job so that no one else gets the bright idea of not doing THEIR job.

The cleric doesn't demand that everyone converts to their god because they know that they can be replaced by another cleric of a different god who is less demanding and allows the group to make their own decisions about what gods they worship.

And yes, when you can cast heal 3 times per day and curing spells a good 20 times per day, they do become pretty mundane.

 

[Aenghus]

There are various reasons for the unfun reputation of clerics amongst some players. The "healbot" issue is the major one, with the religious connection being another.

I have seen a lot of different styles of playing D&D. Anything from a straight tactical combet contest to in-depth roleplaying where the rules are almost irrelevant. Unsurprisingly, most seem to be in the middle of this continuum somewhere.

One thing I have noticed is a version of Darwinian selection in games with a lot of dangerous combats. PCs are pushed by the hostile enviroment into the roles hard coded into the D&D rules, as the best chances of survival and success are afforded by a balanced party, each part of which fulfills its class role. "Weaker" PCs and PCs who are not percieved as pulling their weight tend to die eariler, or be replaced.

This isn't BadWrongFun either, so long as the players involved are up for it.

Conversely, I have seen social Darwinism in games which become political, where those PCs who lack the skills to contribute, and those players who lack the interest move on. Also not BadWrongFun.

As to clerical healing, whether it is a necessity of adventuring life, or a rare miracle to be appreciated, depends on the individual campaign and setting. This obviously has a bearing on the expectations on the role of a cleric in that campaign.

 

[Hussar]

Because people play RPGs not because of ROLES, but because of characters. Hence, people might feel drawn towards the opportunities of religious roleplay in a fantasy setting but get frustrated by a group constantly anyoning them with meta-game thinking on classes, roles, etc.., all of which should be secondary to providing a roleplay experience, not vice versa.

I fail to understand why this is difficult to understand.

And, I agree with you 100%. The question is "why is the cleric unfun?" He's unfun because he's getting frustrated by a group constantly annoying them with meta game thinking...

So, change the mechanic. People are saying, "No, heck, the cleric is fine, it's the players who suck." That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that under the current RAW the cleric is the only one who can heal and is forced by the realities of play to spend some of his time healing others and not doing what he wants to do.

So, yeah, change the mechanics so people can play their cleric the way they want to instead of being forced into heal bot mode.

 

[Hussar]

You have consistently reflected the same very narrow viewpoint in several posts, I just pulled the one quote that was the most narrow. I get it, your games are structured and disciplined and everybody better play their assigned roles, or else. Fine for you, just not for me.

Please do not make any assumptions about my game, and I'll return the favour. Thanks.

PART being the key word here, your other postings have very much indicated that to be ALL, not part.

If I have given that impression, I'm sorry. I was simply answering the question. The part that makes the cleric unfun is what I've been focusing on. That doesn't mean that the cleric is 100% unfun all the time. I never meant to give that impression.

You keep reasserting your opinions as facts, which they are not. Others have stated that they have played without Clerics. While others have stated that they have played Clerics NOT as healer bots. Yet you keep coming back to your narrow defined fixation of roles (now for everyone , not just Clerics) and insisting that this is the way it must be. I know this is the Internet and there is a strong desire to "win" the argument (that I did not want to even have) but just try to understand that not everyone is seeing the game through your particular rose colored glasses. Run your game as you and your players see fit, it just sounds boring to me. Mine would undoubtedly sound <something> to you too. So be it.

The roles have been defined numerous times. I'm not pulling this out of my vas deferens here. DMG2, PHB2, Dragon magazine, endless posts on various boards talk about exactly this. Classes have roles and always have. Now, you can do things outside of those roles, of course. Again, I never said that you couldn't.

And the real answer is:
1) Assumptions made by other non-cleric players put pressure on the cleric player to conform to narrow minded perceptions of the class. This is unfun

Why are those assumptions being made? Is it not because the mechanics only allow the cleric to heal and, without healing, you cannot adventure in most cases?

2) Cleric players who balk at these assumptions often run into narrow minded DM's who then impose them upon the cleric player under the guise of ROLES. This is even more unfun

Again, please stop with the passive/aggressive attacks on other people's games. It does not make your point stronger. It has nothing to do with narrow minded DM's and everything to do with the fact that the game requires healing in some form.

I know, it's so simple, why don't you get it?
Take away the preconceived notions and it is quite fun to play a cleric.
Shackle ANY class with a "you must do this all the time" role and it becomes unfun. It's RPG, not RG.

Funnily enough, cleric is my favourite class to play. I've played clerics in every edition. Love them. But, I don't love them because of the healing thing. I love them despite it.

But, funnily enough, every cleric I've every played has cast healing spells far, far more often than any other spell. Why is that?

 

[megamania]

I'm coming into this conversation rather on the late side (mixed feelings on 4e) and I have to say-


Clerics are my favorite class.

The role playing of worship and careing for others is better than yelling "Tempus!" and go hack down a ill-prepared foe

I describe the healing process and what is done. In Darksun, I played many earth followers and the fellow PCs would look oddly as my character would make a prayer then pour and rub in dirt. "thanks- now I'll die of infection" but then the dirt is rubbed / washed off and only a scar remains.

How I roleplay the meeting of a new character is in the view of they worshipping.

There are many different types of clerics also. There are warrior types (Dwarves are awesome war priests) and also magic ones. Play a cleric of secrets for the rogue in you.



If you are strictly roll-playing then yes, a cleric is not as much fun.

 

[cougent]

Again, please stop with the passive/aggressive attacks on other people's games. It does not make your point stronger. It has nothing to do with narrow minded DM's and everything to do with the fact that the game requires healing in some form.

Nothing passive / aggressive about it, in fact substitute any class name into the statement and it is still just as true. However I will rephrase since you were nice enough to not be too condescending this time; IMO, any DM (you, me, others, anyone) who tells a player "You must do X because that is your ROLE" is narrow minded, said DM may of course disagree.

Funnily enough, cleric is my favourite class to play. I've played clerics in every edition. Love them. But, I don't love them because of the healing thing. I love them despite it.

But, funnily enough, every cleric I've every played has cast healing spells far, far more often than any other spell. Why is that?

Here is a fundamental difference, and I am not saying that either of us is right or wrong, just pointing out the differences is all. When playing a cleric, I also heal and yes in total maybe more various cure spells than others but still only about 20% of my total use of spells, and that is combining all levels of spells together. I also have had tank players who were 40 points down from an 80 point max who refused offered healing because they did not want to waste the spells, "Save it for when I really need it". After a few occurrences of this, I stop asking until he "really needs it"; which over time develops into a play style. A much different style than the heal-bot cleric who runs around to presumably more than one other PC healing after every scratch, neither being better / worse, right / wrong, but definitely at the opposite ends of the play spectrum. It is up to each player to pick and play the style that they find most satisfactory.

 

[Gentlegamer]

To address the thread topic, I think most in this era find the cleric "unfun" because they don't view the game as primarily co-operative and team-based.