D&D 5E Why is WoTc still pushing AP's when the majority of gamers want something else?

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Look people... this is all YOUR FAULT. [MENTION=6776548]Corpsetaker[/MENTION] keeps goading you all into commenting on his threads and you eat it up with a spoon!

Hell, the last thread he created even said IN THE DAMN TITLE to "please stop", and you all managed to keep that one going for 84 fricking pages! He flat out TOLD YOU to cut it out, but you all couldn't leave well enough alone and you went on and on and on arguing about his points.

Isn't it time you all just admit that as much as [MENTION=6776548]Corpsetaker[/MENTION] needs to create the same repetitive, inane threads... you all NEED to comment and debate him about it? He's no longer creating threads in order to generate true change at Wizards of the Coast, he's creating threads to do you all a favor and give you people something to get all huffy about.

He's giving the people what they truly want. You might say he's a service industry, actually. But don't worry, people... admitting you have a problem is the first step towards recovery. And once you stop trying to argue with him and his threads eventually start running fallow... he might even stop creating more of them. ;)

Indeed. And WOTC is giving people what they want. The sales numbers support that contention. And if they don't, then corpsetaker has the challenge of that response when he claims people reply to his threads. It's a catch-22.
 

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Actually there is something that wasn't considered. I remember Perkin's stating that he had stories planned for the next X number of years. There could be a contract in place with various other companies that they may not be able to pull back on. It could also be that if Perkin's pulled back then it shows he was wrong.
Sorry, but that's a laughable conspiracy theory. That the adventures aren't doing well and that they're continuing to do a losing strategy because of contracts and to avoid hurting Perkin's feelings.
Firstly, WotC is the party with power in making the contracts. They're the ones with the IP. They're the ones the license parties want to deal with and approach.
It would also be foolish of WotC to work any single product line into contracts, since they would have known they could fail or plans could change. That's just not done. Plus, many of the licenses would have been negotiated months or years prior to 5e, before the plans were firmly set.
But, in the super extremely unlikely situation this was the case, WotC has options. They could keep the storylines but drop the superadventures, and make the twice annual stories part of Organized Play only. Y'know, like they did for most of 4e. Or they could renegotiate the contracts, offering favourable terms (such as an extension). They would not just keeping doing what they're doing.


Also, Perkin's is way down the totem pole. Above him are Mearls, then Nathan Stewart, and then the CEO. Possibly a middle manager or two between Stewart and the CEO. If the storylines were doing poorly, all of them would need to agree to continue to release the adventures. Chris Perkin's doesn't have ANY say in the continuation of the adventures.
Perkins is also a pro. He knows that sometimes products get canceled and product lines end. WotC has cancelled products and changed plans before.


But what really moves the idea the adventures aren't doing into the realm of conspiracy theory is that it flies in the face of the amazon sales rankings. The adventures aren't just doing well for RPG books, but books in general.


If nobody ever pushed for change then the world would be a very bad place. There is nothing wrong with being persistent with what you want. There were several things that Mearls wanted to add to 5th edition that people rallied and said no. Remember the whole "damage on a miss" fiasco?
Only if the change is positive…


And, yes, I remember the "damage on a miss" fiasco. I was a heavy participant. One of the unrealistically small sampling of people arguing on a message board. One of maybe two dozen people that really gave a crap about the issue. I was a member of a disproportionate group that was not representative of the whole and should not have been listened to, ignored in favour of survey respondents.
And, in the end, DoaM went away. But I doubt my juvenile screaming on a message board had anything to do with that.
DoaM is an excellent example of why Mearl's should pay attention to the entirety of the playerbase and not just what the 1% of fans who post online are saying.


Actually Mike did not say that. You've gotten your information wrong. Mike said they have sold more PHB's than some of the earlier editions. He tried to break up 3.0 and 3.5 as separate editions in order to prove his point correct when in fact 3.0 and 3.5 were not separate editions but one edition. This has been argued in other threads.
Did 3.0 and 3.5 have their own PHB? Why, yes they did. Did those PHBs contain different rules necessitating a separate purchase? Also yes. So counting the sales of those separately makes sense. Unlike the 2e reprint where the content was repackaged but the text was identical.
Lumping the sales assumes that there was no overlap in the audiences, which is likely not the case.


Regardless, 5e has outsold 3.0e. And given the much smaller number of PHBs 3.5e sold, and given the continued selling power of the 5e PHB, it probably will not be long before the 5e PHB sells more than 3.0e and 3.5e combined.
If it has not already.


This has already been explained to you before. DM'sGuild material is not legal in AL nor is it allowed at lot's of tables. Not to mention the fact that loads of it is broken, not play tested, and not official. Fan made material has been around for a long time, but now just because Wizards creates a site for it that it's suddenly become well accepted. Nothing has really changed in this department. Fan made material is still looked at cautiously and not accepted by loads of DM's.
Firstly, do you actually PLAY in the Adventurer's League or is this just an excuse?


Second, at best Organized Play is a tenth of games. There aren't that many game stores and not all run AL. Remember how for the longest time everyone was asking for small adventures or the AL adventures to be made public because they couldn't get to a store? AL should be in the minds of the D&D team when releasing content, but it shouldn't be the driving factor.


Third, as someone who played a lot in Living Greyhawk and Pathfinder Society, lots of new content is NOT what organized play needs. It's actually the exact opposite. From experience, what hurts those campaigns the most is lots of options, as the DMs can't say "no". DMs can't block certain options, and running the game becomes harder when you're uncertain what any given player can do.
I gave up trying to adjudicate Pathfinder Society characters and went by the honour system. Because finding the text in a book and reading all the entries unfairly slows down play for the rest of the table. "You have a combo feat/ archetype/ magic item that lets you punch out Cthulhu? Sure, I guess you KO an Elder God then."


Fourth, WotC can only playtest material because they're releasing it slowly and have lots of time between releases. You call out that fan material isn't playtested and loads of it is broken… well, look at the content released for 3.5e and 4e. How much of that was playtested? Answer: none. How much was broken? A heck of a lot. A few options released were functionally unplayable.
 

Look people... this is all YOUR FAULT. @Corpsetaker keeps goading you all into commenting on his threads and you eat it up with a spoon!

Hell, the last thread he created even said IN THE DAMN TITLE to "please stop", and you all managed to keep that one going for 84 fricking pages! He flat out TOLD YOU to cut it out, but you all couldn't leave well enough alone and you went on and on and on arguing about his points.

Isn't it time you all just admit that as much as @Corpsetaker needs to create the same repetitive, inane threads... you all NEED to comment and debate him about it? He's no longer creating threads in order to generate true change at Wizards of the Coast, he's creating threads to do you all a favor and give you people something to get all huffy about.

He's giving the people what they truly want. You might say he's a service industry, actually. But don't worry, people... admitting you have a problem is the first step towards recovery. And once you stop trying to argue with him and his threads eventually start running fallow... he might even stop creating more of them. ;)
But... but.. but if I don't defend D&D and the hobby I love from the complaints of an anmonymous internet troll on a niche message board then who will?

Yeah, I should stop taking the bait. I know I should, you know I should... but it's hard. And compared to other internet gathering places of D&D nerds (Reddit, Facebook, Twitter) ENWorld is sadly the "bitch about/ defend WotC/D&D site." Those are the threads that get traction. It's why we're all here.
 
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MrHotter

First Post
I have a homebrew world that I've used since I started a new campaign for 4E when it first came out. I still like the AP style adventures and I own two of them. The western part of my main continent is very similar to the Sword Coast, so I can drop any published adventure into my game. For the adventure paths I don't own I just make sure that my world could adapt to them. My players have heard rumors about dragons being spotted flying around, giants acting peculiar, and dark elves abducting people. If they show interest in any of those things I could make that my next adventure if we ever finish CoS or my own adventures.

I actually prefer not having a long list of books and online resources I need get to have 'all' the rules for a game. I have the core 3 books and everything else is optional for me. Pathfinder scared me off as a DM with the number of resources that are involved that are rule oriented.

I prefer to spend my money on things like spell cards and miniatures, so WotC is actually not getting the bulk of the money I'm spending on 5E. If I ever play with an online group again I'd appreciate the Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 content to what I used to do with Maptools. I'm willing to pay for a stable system and someone willing to put in the grunt work of token and map setup.
 


The amount of people who do run homebrew has everything to do with it. Most people who run homebrew also run homebrew adventures and not AP's. People want to make up their own stories whether it's trough an established setting or one they made up. It's been about Wizards agenda all along because the moment the people's wants don't coincide with Wizard's direct then we see Wizards going in the same direction they planned on going.

I'm going to respond to this before I can be swayed by the next four pages of what is undoubtedly a flame war. I find this initial premise to be nonintuitive and I don't see any evidence to support it (and you have provided none). People who run homebrew are no more or less likely to want to be able to purchase modules or APs (so far as I can tell).

To your second point, if you've already established what you think is the explanation to why this happens (Wizards not caring what people want, and doing what they were going to do anyways, which by the way sounds insane for a company that wants us to give them our money, so you're not giving them a lot of credit), why bother posting this? For all your talk about this being a discussion forum, it sounds more like you want to make declarations of predetermined opinions rather than actually discuss anything. You could have very easily couched this in the language of dialogue (such as, "it is my contention that... ... what does everyone else think?"), but you didn't.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
According to a Wizards survey, most people run their games using homebrew...
So Wizards, we have told you what we want and how we run our games and yet you still try and shove AP's down our throats.
Maybe the 'majority' who run homebrew & don't buy APS, don't buy much of any one other sort of thing consistently either, while the 'minority' who do buy APs buy 'em all, every time?

Wallet votes beat survey votes?

Also, running homebrew doesn't mean never buying APs - they can be a source for ideas or bits of them can be adapted into a larger homebrew campaigns. Really, anything that saves an Empowered 5e DM some work might be worth a few bucks...
 

According to a Wizards survey, most people run their games using homebrew. Now this can mean anything from using an established setting but giving it your own stamp, or using a completely made up world.

Now Wizards always claimed they were using the surveys to give people what they want but it seems what people want doesn't align with that Wizards wants. When people say they run most of their games using homebrew then you would think they would be jumping to make more regional books, non setting books, and more DM's aids. I think this has been a product of the surveys all along but that's another topic.

So Wizards, we have told you what we want and how we run our games and yet you still try and shove AP's down our throats.

Why?

I have to admit that I'd probably buy a big book of random tables for adventure generation, if it was good quality and easy to use (i.e. better than something I threw together myself in five minutes). Sometimes it's fun, as DM, to discover things just like the players do. The random tables at the back of the DMG are fine, so if WotC just radically expanded them and added some monsters and a dungeon level parameter random encounter tables and random treasure tables per-monster (akin to the old treasure types) and traps and occasional larger groups of monsters with hordes, I'd probably buy it. Ideally though there would be two parameters: dungeon level (max CR of the monsters you find there) and scale (max XP budget for the fight, which might represent how deep in the level you've gone) so that players can choose to either go down level X to fight beholders, or to go deep in level II and fight gigantic hordes of ogres.

If WotC has done the homework in advance to figure out some likely motivations for gigantic hordes of ogres and beholders to be hanging out in the same dungeon, bonus! They probably wouldn't do that work, but if it's a sufficiently good dungeon crawl I'd buy it anyway.

I do need maps and random encounters and treasure tables though.

(I admit that I might or might not ever use such a product even if I bought it, but I haven't used Storm King's Thunder or Curse of Strahd either, and Rise of Tiamat was so bad I gave it away. At minimum I'd be more likely to use such a product, because I can use it for a week or so at a time instead of committing to it for months.)
 

APs are the gateway drug of 5e. If you are new to the game, you are likely going to pick an AP that interests you along with the core books. Having a wide variety of APs means Wizards is more likely to hook a new player. For those already hooked, the APs can provide inspiration for home brews or an easy way to play when you don't have time to create everything from scratch.

5e is designed with the casual, occasional, and life-busy player in mind and the release strategy reflects the goals of courting and converting those types of players. For the hard-core, frequent players who post on message boards, the game is designed to be hacked to fit our needs. I'm currently running a home brew campaign that began in the Next playtest as well as the CoS AP for the same group of players. If I have time to design for my home brew, we play that, if not, it's CoS. But I also purchase and read all of the APs and mine them for ideas for my home brew, sometimes lifting things whole cloth from them and plopping them down into Duotin.

It's just that simple, and seems to be working as intended to grow the hobby.

It's precisely that casual focus that makes APs an awkward fit compared to old-school random dungeon crawls. APs demand that you buy into some overarching plot. When my friends get together to play Betrayal At the House On the Hill for an evening, there's no way I can talk them into starting Storm King's Thunder instead and running the first 1% of the plot. But that game is similar enough to 5E that I could probably talk them into a good old "kill the monsters look for treasure" dungeon crawl with a twist (one of you guys will turn out to be a traitor) using 5E rules. Then whichever PCs win or at least survive that game gets to be re-used in future games until they die.

Episodic games full of casual death and high turnover are the very roots of D&D. If you want to grab casual players, start there.
 

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