Why isn't WotC acknowledging Grind issue?

[brainstorm]

I've seen, and contributed to, quite a few "grind" threads on this board and the WotC forums, but I've yet to see an official response from WotC on the issue. I think it would be wise of them to address the issue early on in the life cycle of this edition before the problem drives players to other editions or games. I have currently stopped my 7 player 4E game at the Paragon Tier because we can barely get through 1 combat encounter in the 5 hour sessions we have weekly. That pace is entirely too slow for me to be able to progress a campaign.

I believe they should:

1. Acknowledge the issue exists. This will help reassure their players aren't playing the game "wrong".
2. Identify the drivers (easy, as most of the forums that address the issue list out the drivers).
3. Offer DMing and Player tips on how to avoid grind (again, easy due to the many threads dealing with the issue).
4. Offer optional rules to help minimize grind. This is what I really want to see. This could be anything from putting caps on the number of conditions that can affect any given creature, lower the maximum number of powers players can have so that they aren't bogged down with options, provide suggestions for revising monsters to make them less "grindy", and so on.

I believe that failure to address the issue will only result in a slow erosion of their player base.

 

[Relique du Madde]

Maybe because they don't view it as being an issue. After all, if they did, they would have fixed it during playtesting.

 

[Cyronax]

Actually in multiple places in the DMG2, WotC gives suggestions for altering monsters for the sole purpose of making the game more playeable. They often suggest not overloading the number of soldiers and brutes for instance. There are also ideas give for making more interesting monsters -- but not more complex or difficult -- in order to make a long combat more interesting.

Also I believe there are suggestions about reducing the number of hit points for certain types of monsters.

Maybe someone else has page references. I'm not near my books -- they're on the other side of the room.

C.I.D.

 

[Morrus]

What do you mean by "acknowledge" the grind issue? Every iteration of D&D has had its own issues, but game companies don't publish press releases about them.

At no point are they going to publically say "there are issues with our game". They aren't Toyota; there are no legal or safety concerns which mandate that they must.

Your personal experience doesn't reflect my own; while I won't disagree that there is an element of grind to 4E, I've never found that encounters last more than an hour, let alone the 5 hours you're citing as your typical experience, and we're progressing our campaign just fine.

Without doubt, there's a grind element there. But I honestly don't feel (in my own game) that it's gamebreaking in the way you state (of course, tastes vary, and we all play what we like) or that it has the effects you're experiencing.

In my own game, I have admittedly handwaved encounetrs when it's obvious they're over, and I have enemies flee or surrender. Plus my players use the intimidate-bloodied-opponents when they can, with varying success. None of that it system based, though - it's the stuff I've done all throughout my time GM/DMing RPGs.

We're experiencing - at paragon tier - about an hour per encounter. I'd personally like it to be 30 mins or so, but we're certainly not experiencing 5 hours per encounter. And we're not using any of the suggested modifications.

 

[Crothian]

If the threads identify the problem and offer solutions why do we need Wizards to do it?

 

[Pseudonym]

Maybe because they don't view it as being an issue. After all, if they did, they would have fixed it during playtesting.

Very true. It could be that the playtesters thought things went fine. There are threads where people complain about grind in their games, but I don't know as it is anything more than anecdotal.

 

[Cyronax]

I've never found that encounters last more than an hour, let alone the 5 hours you're citing as your typical experience, and we're progressing our campaign just fine.

Without doubt, there's a grind element there. But I honestly don't feel (in my own game) that it's gamebreaking in the way you state (of course, tastes vary, and we all play what we like) or that it has the effects you're experiencing.

I like and play 4e rather exclusively nowadays (though I think Star Wars SAGA is the best system bar none). Anyway, I have experienced grind issues, including several multi-hour slugfests. The reason they last that long is usually due to several encounter areas being alerted to the presence of the party and then converging on them all at once.

The party didn't want to back down or withdraw. They felt badass enough to fight the tide and take on more challenges than level appropriate -- god love em...4e makes for durable PCs and at least makes grinding an option!

Its times like that when a player calls his wife and says he'll be staying at a session late because we're in the middle of battle.

It beats the typical situation when I DMed 3.X where the PCs knocked down my carefully constructed villain in 20 minutes. Yet I spent 3 hours statting out the villain's spell selection, feats, etc.

C.I.D.

 

[Mistwell]

Numerous people have posted to these threads stating they do not have the grind issue, and gave their suggestions for why they think they do not have a grind issue.

So, it's not really a matter of WOTC addressing it, it's a matter of people who have a problem with it taking a look at the advice and seeing if it will work for their game.

In our games, when people know what they are doing, how to best use their character in conjunction with the rest of the team, and are prepared to roll the dice (attack and damage at same time), and know the various effects of their powers right away based on whether it is a hit or a miss when their turn in the initiative order comes up, then turns should go very quick and no combat should last as long as some folks are describing.

If your combats are lasting hours, I think usually there is something you can do to speed things up, without any rules changes or WOTC addressing it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Pfft. Since when have DMs needed to be told from On High how to fix their games, especially with a community like ENWorld!

IIRC, though, Mearls has a blog post about how some people find the game grindy (I think he attributes it to roles, or higher level monsters, or some DM issue like that). And the DMGII has advice relating to grind. So they're certainly aware that some people are having problems with this aspect of the game.

But the issue is also not universal. Plenty of people haven't noticed the grind, or don't mind the grind (hehe, rhymed), or have only had the grind pop up in a few limited scenarios.

WotC doesn't need to aknowledge anything. In fact, I wouldn't expect them to, at least until they have a fix in.

 

[brainstorm]

What do you mean by "acknowledge" the grind issue? Every iteration of D&D has had its own issues, but game companies don't publish press releases about them.

At no point are they going to publically say "there are issues with our game". They aren't Toyota; there are no legal or safety concerns which mandate that they must.

Your personal experience doesn't reflect my own; while I won't disagree that there is an element of grind to 4E, I've never found that encounters last more than an hour, let alone the 5 hours you're citing as your typical experience, and we're progressing our campaign just fine.

Without doubt, there's a grind element there. But I honestly don't feel (in my own game) that it's gamebreaking in the way you state (of course, tastes vary, and we all play what we like) or that it has the effects you're experiencing.

In my own game, I have admittedly handwaved encounetrs when it's obvious they're over, and I have enemies flee or surrender. Plus my players use the intimidate-bloodied-opponents when they can, with varying success. None of that it system based, though - it's the stuff I've done all throughout my time GM/DMing RPGs.

We're experiencing - at paragon tier - about an hour per encounter. I'd personally like it to be 30 mins or so, but we're certainly not experiencing 5 hours per encounter. And we're not using any of the suggested modifications.

Let me clarify that I don't typically have encounters that last 5 hours (although I did have one that lasted that and another hour in our second session, but that was a huge battle and I expected it to run long). Most of our late Heroic/early Paragon Tier combat encounters last anywhere from 2-3 hours. We get through one combat, do some role playing and maybe start another combat before our time runs out.

And when I say "acknowledge" I don't mean admit the game is broken and all play should stop immediately. The game works fine to a point. I have found that point to be around 7th level with 7 players. Based on the numerous threads that I've read on this board as well as the WotC board, others have experienced similar issues.

So, an article or two on the DDI, in Dragon and/or Dungeon magazine that provides "tips on how to speed up combat", using the issues they can readily find in their own forums or this one, would get the job done without saying, "hey, there's a problem".

I've tried all of the tips in the DMG and DMG II and they don't work for me. I've DM'd in every edition of the game and know my way around the game table. I can improvise and I can modify with the best of them. If an experienced DM like me is encountering difficulty in keeping combat down to a reasonable (which I define as 1 hour per encounter), I can only imagine the problems a novice DM is running into.

Also, let me clarify that my grind problem has been most prevalent with my group of 7 players. I don't experience it with my group of 4 (3 of whom play in my group of 7).