5E Why Not? A Variant Captain Fighter

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Just writing down a few things not much nailed down
Charge Option (modifies Dash Action to melee attack as bonus action if you have extra attacks)
Enable At-wills (basically spending an extra attack to get a maneuver benefit)
Heroic Surges(hd spending in battle to make bigger battles less swingy)
Risky Maneuvering (trigger Opportunity Attack to gain Extra Attack)
Extreme Exertion (spend Hit points to gain an Extra Attack - maybe including Temp Hit Points)
Training Regimen (spend 1/2 hour and Action Surge to gain more maneuvers and CS die = 1 + extra attack for the day)
Allow maneuvers (effectively higher level) to use more than one Attack and more than one CS die.
Berserk Attack Spend 2 attacks to harm all adjacent creatures (discourage focus fire attack on fighter.)
Running Attack Spend 3 attacks (and obligatory CS die) to harm/affect all creatures adjacent during your turn to allow larger area affects not just current location centered ones.
Scan For Openings ( trade attack for CS maneuver effect with mental stat bonus)
Fix Weaker Fighting Styles
Add Leader Fighting Styles
(like Opening Strike and Leading Strike)
Fix Weaker Maneuvers
Add Maneuvers
including Defender Oriented Ones like Harrying Shout (Threatens near enemies marking them) Leader Oriented Ones
Battle Ready
to help Str + other mental stat fighters have decent initiative and War Cry to share initiative.
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
only granted one... kind of like instead of getting a style that affects every move you do ... you pick one as an encounter power ok its more potent but.
Right, so a protecting feature that can protect multiple characters would be a good fit for a cavalier.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I mean at some point, why not make a new class?
That is why there is a recommendation usually to make the Warlord its own class by many proponents. Making the Fighter THE class that encompasses all non-rogue style combatants is kind of the temptation frome 1e and 2e era and 5e rather did that too (but not exactly Fighters and Paladins and Rangers and Barbarians in 2e were all Warrior Subclasses)
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
In that regards one could indeed make a Weaponmaster who is a full Defender and captures that Damned if you do Damned if you don't paradigm
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I think generally unfavourable - which is fine. It’s a good way to have the opportunity when it’s situationally favourable.

I’d probably simplify it. You can give up an attack to restore a superiority die.
@Don Durito hoping you will revisit this thinking. Some recent analysis for instance of Riposte indicates a CS die is equal in value to an extra attack with a CS Die of damage on top. (Other effects might not always unless they are optimally used) Or is that just a problem of a couple of the maneuvers being easier to hit that potency than most of the others.

The scan for openings may require some small penalty for its effect to be convert a raw attack to a maneuver with a full effect CS die. I was considering making scan for opening a skill check of some sort which might be quite appealing flavor wise What do you think? (a skill check that gains advantage if you have advantage on attacks against the subject already of course)

Or instead of a skill check make your effective CS die just the secondary stat rating like Wisdom or Intellect.
 
@Don Durito hoping you will revisit this thinking. Some recent analysis for instance of Riposte indicates a CS die is equal in value to an extra attack with a CS Die of damage on top. (Other effects might not always unless they are optimally used) Or is that just a problem of a couple of the maneuvers being easier to hit that potency than most of the others.

The scan for openings may require some small penalty for its effect to be convert a raw attack to a maneuver with a full effect CS die. I was considering making scan for opening a skill check of some sort which might be quite appealing flavor wise What do you think? (a skill check that gains advantage if you have advantage on attacks against the subject already of course)

Or instead of a skill check make your effective CS die just the secondary stat rating like Wisdom or Intellect.
Riposte is a problem manoeuvre anyway, as it's far better than most of the others (Precision attack being the only real exception in most situations).

But you're giving up an extra attack for a chance to do an extra attack with a little bit more damage on top. (The enemy may not miss you, or they may not choose to attack you - which is pretty logical if you've previously riposted).

So the trade-off really depends on both how high your defence is (so they miss a lot) and how low your normal damage (so that a superiority dice represents a significant add on to be worth the risk of not making the trade off at all).

So it may be worthwhile for a very high AC defender style Sword and Board cavalier with Sentinel that has the means of locking an enemy into place.

But the issue I think, for me anyway, is that this encourages more the strategic expenditure of character build resources, rather than dynamic tactical decision making in play (once you optimise to make something en effective option - then you're always going to default to it when you can - and therefore a problem is "solved" and ceases to be interesting.)
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
But the issue I think, for me anyway, is that this encourages more the strategic expenditure of character build resources
I am just saying battlemaster fighters can scan for openings if they want to on that turn they give up an attack its a dynamic choice each round

Oh wait you are saying that by getting impossible to hit that creates a problem isnt being impossible to hit kind of a problem ? elsewhere ?

I figured it probably will not be used on a riposte but probably on a trip or some other (maybe a precision attack)
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Misunderstood

if the enemy has seen you retaliate last round and chooses to attack your ally later that is a classic reason why riposte is a striker maneuver not typically a defender one however IF they do attack someone else and you were saving the die for a riposte its lost...which might be no benefit (directly unless you have another use or) unless attacking someone else was the goal... but hey if you have a retaliate for when they attack your ally that is a different feature firing off ... I kind of like that. its a ht my ally i will hurt you miss me and i will hurt you... so make sure you hit me.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
An example One turn I make 2 attacks and one of them misses and the other is feeble. Next turn i say hmm and give up one of those attacks to get a cs die. The subsequent attack is jinxed so bad I decide not to use the CS to precision attack but during an enemies subsequent attack I still have that die and can make a riposte. There is no solved problem situation. I might even use risky maneuvering to get another attack in there because I am annoyed at all the misses and feeling tough... LOL .
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
My original wording is off and the cs die or cs number gained does need to last till my next turn but maybe even the end of the battle.

As I said the problem I see really is 1 we have to make sure its not just trade an attack for a cs die since a cs die is worth more than just 1 extra attack its one attack plus that cs die rider. (that skill check is looking better and better)
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Now computing how hard is the Wisdom (perception/insight) or Intelligence(investigation) check to scan for openings and was based on the adversary. The check in theory has to make up for a CS die of damage

( attack damage / (attack damage + die) ) = chance of success of the roll?

OK let's call it nominally 65 percent.
hmmm nominally turns it into an attack roll
blink blink

One could literally make it an attack roll.... though that makes it harder for me to interject the mental stats.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
OK the temp CS die you get from a Scan for openings I might call a Tactical Die (use different colored dice if you like) but basically they last till the end of the encounter,
Still thinking about the Stat / Skill check instead of an attack roll. Almost just want it to be a medium difficulty check so its the entire scene you are up against with it. That way when you use the die for aiding an ally it didnt relate directly to the enemy you were up against.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Dons comment plus this one has me figuring that Scan for openings with die roll to see if you find tactical info is pretty darn functional
Bear in mind that the Battlemaster damage maths from the first page is rather bad and somewhat misleading.
It ignores the riders on the maneuvers, to just look at pure damage, but ignores the maneuvers that just give damage: Riposte and precision attack.

A better model would be to assume that each Superiority dice grants an additional attack, rather than just being a rider on an existing attack. This represents use of Riposte to get an additional attack, and Precision to turn a miss into another chance to hit.

This also shows the Battlemaster scaling better since attacks will increase in damage at higher levels.
I think it also points to wanting better balance on some of the other maneuvers.... Rally needs to have a stronger base maybe just grant two superiority die worth of thp + Cha mod.

Unless it can be adjusted so some of the maneuvers do not need the scan roll and others do though that would complicate things.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Predators Stare: Searching for vulnerabilities your unnerving focus drives your enemy to overcompensate inducing it to have disadvantage on its first attack during the following turn. Additionally you discover its vulnerability and your next attack against that enemy in addition to advantage has a bonus damage equal to a superiority die + your wisdom modifier if you hit.
Special as a bonus (re)action you may perform a help action to help an ally attack the subject of your stare if you do they also gain a superiority die as extra damage on the helped attack.

Dramatic Form: if you forgo an additional attack enemies within 30 feet of the target enemy are also induced to have disadvantage if they fail a saving throw.

For balance one might compare to a trip which also impairs an enemy and delivers damage immediately etc
I definitely still think this one works quite well balance wise but ironically may not be situational enough where as I think it was @doctorbadwolf lf thought to give distracting attack an area affect off the bat I think that might hit both creating situational value and better balance it.

Part of its power does rely on their being an ally for you to help so that element is situational.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I definitely still think this one works quite well balance wise but ironically may not be situational enough where as I think it was @doctorbadwolf lf thought to give distracting attack an area affect off the bat I think that might hit both creating situational value and better balance it.
Or wait was it Rally that you suggested that for.... because while it would fix either I think Rally works even better in flavor.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Scan for Openings name change to Scan the Battle, this name I feel better represents the idea that the opportunity or opening might be to aid an ally or any option not just find a better attack against a target but could include that.

Scan the Battle
You may forgo a single attack in order to scan the battle and make an Attribute Check usually Int(investigation) or Wis(Insight) generally median difficulty unless enemies and allies and the arena of battle were all quite foreign DMs discretion as usual. Gain an extra CS die which remains till the battlefield/enemies change in some dramatic way or till the battle ends regardless.( generally speaking the end of the encounter)

That's still probably not the right language but that is the idea.

Note the above does not include "You may add your Int/Wis/Charisma in addition to the die if the maneuver calls for a die roll." phrase - I figured since we were introducing the roll- the benefit for the more erudite battlemaster was already gaining an encouragement just in a more dicey.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The following option gained at level 3? is for any fighter who knows maneuvers. Including those taking Martial adept whose subclass does not specialize in maneuvers.

Training Regimen/Kata/Morning meditations or whatever ;p.
Spend 1/2 hour and expend an action surge you may choose an additional maneuver you do not already know to add to your repertoire for the day for each attack you would gain if you were to use it for an attack action. Additionally make a medium Wis (Insight) check to gain an extra CS die.
 

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