D&D 5E (2014) Why not Alternity? (Or, will or how might WotC do SF?)

[jgsugden]

If they wanted to do Sci-fi, it would be a d20 version of Star Finders.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The D&D system and formula doesn't really work for Scifi and Starfinder shows that really well.

Starfinder isn't very good because it isn't very good. It has nothing to do with the genre.

Its not only the ludicrousness of PCs running through heavy supressive fire with a sword,

No one is suggesting realistic SF. What you describe happens in Star Wars all the time, along with the earlier pulp SF novels which inspired both Star Wars and Star Frontiers.

its also how the common D&D/D20 style of four to five guys murdering things in dungeons for loot

It works just fine. The Guardians of the Galaxy do it. The crew of Serenity do it.

does not really fit with modern and futuristic societies and the possibilities available there (tracking, licensing, formal police forces and armies, WMDs for those world ending threats, etc).

No one is talking about recreating modern and futuristic settings. They are talking about a game that plays like D&D but has a SF skin.

Starships are also something that do not work well in a D20 environment, especially when you get the usual gargantuan monsters D&D uses which can easily be targeted by starship weaponry.

It works fine. I've done it in WEG Star Wars D6. You just stat the gargantuan monster as if it where a starship. In Rebels Admiral Thrawn is defeated when his Star Destroyer is attacked by space whales. Monster vs Starship is a thing.

So to do SciFi well

As I said, it's not about "doing SF well" - there are dedicated game systems all about doing SF well. It's about giving D&D a SF paint job, because D&D is a fun game, but pseudo-medievalism gets boring after a while.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Planetary Romance: D&D is already doing this. Any non-standard D&D world like Athas, Eberron or Ravnica is basically a planetary romance, as the players learn the rules of the new setting and learn to adapt and thrive there. Hell, you could make the PCs a bunch of astronauts from 21st century Earth and crash their spaceship on Toril! There is an old French CRPG called Albion that used that exact scenario.

Marion Zimmer Bradly's Darkover novels are explicitly in the Planetary Romance subgenre, and where a major influence on early D&D.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Planetary Romance: D&D is already doing this. Any non-standard D&D world like Athas, Eberron or Ravnica is basically a planetary romance, as the players learn the rules of the new setting and learn to adapt and thrive there. Hell, you could make the PCs a bunch of astronauts from 21st century Earth and crash their spaceship on Toril! There is an old French CRPG called Albion that used that exact scenario.

Marion Zimmer Bradly's Darkover novels are explicitly in the Planetary Romance subgenre, and where a major influence on early D&D.

You're technically right but I was going for a bit more obviously so with ray guns and spaceships and focussing on things different to d&d Tolkien ish races.
(I am fairly certain the green Martians are in part of the DNA of the modern orc given the tusks, green colour and being largely savage and violent)

 

[darjr]

There was a skunkworks D&D 5e Gammaworld within WotC. And a Starfrontiers one, though I only have second hand word on that one. It may have been a team of one person.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

spaceships

Given that the protagonist is usually stuck on one world (not their homeworld) in a planetary romance, spaceships are largely notable by their unavailability!

Interestingly, a good example of a planetary romance is Dune, and in Dune, despite being serious SF, by the power of plot device, manages to make swords better than guns, and has space magic of a type.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Given that the protagonist is usually stuck on one world (not their homeworld) in a planetary romance, spaceships are largely notable by their unavailability!

Interestingly, a good example of a planetary romance is Dune, and in Dune, despite being serious SF, by the power of plot device, manages to make swords better than guns, and has space magic of a type.

true but I going to give more options than just one knock off-world, getting stuck on a world is the dm's job not inherently the setting designer's also lets you have multiple tones and zones for what different player like and want.

also removes the nagging feeling of how so many types of sapient live in such a small area.
plus it is nearly rare not unheard of.

 

[vecna00]

The problem with d20 modern was you couldn’t just play a wizard. Sure there was a prestige class you could switch too. But when people want to play a fantasy game in a modern setting they still want to play a wizard or a vampire slayer. If they can get that through their head and learn from Jim butcher and btvs and Angel they just might be able to make a good modern setting/game.

In the original Modern UA, it seemed like they were going to go this route. You could just be a wizard, cleric, warlock, fighter, etc.

I wish we could have seen more of where they wanted to take it.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

true but I going to give more options than just one knock off-world, getting stuck on a world is the dm's job not inherently the setting designer's also lets you have multiple tones and zones for what different player like and want.

also removes the nagging feeling of how so many types of sapient live in such a small area.
plus it is nearly rare not unheard of.

The nature of Planetary Romance is to have one highly detailed world with it's own unique set of rules. The protagonist learning the rules is the genre equivalent of levelling up. Trying to create a set of rules for a Planetary Romance RPG is an oxymoron. Consider D&D. You can create a range of unfamiliar worlds with the core D&D rules by changing things like playable races and available technology, but some things are going to always be D&D-ish. It can only create a subset of all imaginable worlds. And that goes for any rules system - the rules of the world will always to some degree reflect the rules of the game. If you try to create rules to cover all possible worlds you will end up with something so bland and generic that it isn't interesting (see: D20 Modern).

And once you start adding in multiple worlds and space travel* to one setting it isn't part of the Planetary Romance subgenre at all, it's a Space Opera (see: Star Frontiers).


*I can think of a couple of examples where Planetary Romance and Space Opera are combined: Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, and Farscape. These both involve transporting the protagonist to a strange world where they have to learn the rules. It's just that the "world" happens to be space.

 

[Mind of tempest]

The nature of Planetary Romance is to have one highly detailed world with it's own unique set of rules. The protagonist learning the rules is the genre equivalent of levelling up. Trying to create a set of rules for a Planetary Romance RPG is an oxymoron. Consider D&D. You can create a range of unfamiliar worlds with the core D&D rules by changing things like playable races and available technology, but some things are going to always be D&D-ish. It can only create a subset of all imaginable worlds. And that goes for any rules system - the rules of the world will always to some degree reflect the rules of the game. If you try to create rules to cover all possible worlds you will end up with something so bland and generic that it isn't interesting (see: D20 Modern).

And once you start adding in multiple worlds and space travel* to one setting it isn't part of the Planetary Romance subgenre at all, it's a Space Opera (see: Star Frontiers).


*I can think of a couple of examples where Planetary Romance and Space Opera are combined: Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, and Farscape. These both involve transporting the protagonist to a strange world where they have to learn the rules. It's just that the "world" happens to be space.

yes and no I have to make it self contained setting as opposed to other world stories which a lot of were and that does not work for dnd very well so I have to update around it, some are self-contained and were likely predecessors to more self-contained worlds.
but there are setting bits that are more familiar and mundane modern earth like ish to help make outsider characters but some people want to be the more native to the played area of the setting and I will let them have it as well.

I know I can only make a limited set and I have to deal with it but also most things are only done a certain way, to begin with.

the strange world is the whole solar system so I can parcel out areas and tones efficiently and provide different variants to different players.
also I limit the scope to the largest setting buildable size but put lots of misty half-known areas to be filled in as tables need.