why not getting rid of coup de grace?

[Li Shenron]

Hi.

I think CdG has been mentioned already a couple of times, so i am pretty sure it's in 4e, although it could be changed.

But in 3e it was IMHO the source of several problem. It turned many spells into save-or-die. Sleep for example, or Hold Person, they weren't broken until the players figured out to follow them with CdG. The spells were fine themselves, but CdG broke them.

Why is CdG needed so much in the game? If it's for realism, the game has lots of unrealistic simplifications, why insisting on this one?
Is the purpose of Cdg to allow a realistic rendition of assassination? But in most cases an Npc can be murdered in 1 blow anyway by an assassin. A Pc of mid-high level cannot, but the scenario of having you killed in your sleep because of 1 missed save or die is once again something that many gamers hate.

 

[Hairfoot]

Why is CdG needed so much in the game? If it's for realism, the game has lots of unrealistic simplifications, why insisting on this one?

Yes, but to a limit. Having the rules state that a defenceless creature can't be quickly and easily killed smashes suspension of disbelief.

If the party finds it ethically acceptable to murder sleeping opponents, why not? The spell won't be much use to them at even mid-levels, anyway.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Hi.

I think CdG has been mentioned already a couple of times, so i am pretty sure it's in 4e, although it could be changed.

But in 3e it was IMHO the source of several problem. It turned many spells into save-or-die. Sleep for example, or Hold Person, they weren't broken until the players figured out to follow them with CdG. The spells were fine themselves, but CdG broke them.

Why is CdG needed so much in the game? If it's for realism, the game has lots of unrealistic simplifications, why insisting on this one?
Is the purpose of Cdg to allow a realistic rendition of assassination? But in most cases an Npc can be murdered in 1 blow anyway by an assassin. A Pc of mid-high level cannot, but the scenario of having you killed in your sleep because of 1 missed save or die is once again something that many gamers hate.

Maybe we just need a state that is somewhere between, totally, utterly helpless and thus "coup-de-graceable", and just "helpless so that he can't do anything"?

The first one is only available under very restricted circumstances, and might even require some effort to maintain by the "coup-de-gracer". A sleeping character might be in this state, but even the most silent noise can bring into the next higher state of helpless.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I think coup de grace is in the game to give a quantifiable rule to the usual "in certain situations, a dagger through the eye means a dead character" notes that pop up in games that use hit point systems for their main characters, to circumvent the "I have to stab the bound prisoner repeatedly in the throat HOW MANY TIMES with my dagger to kill him!?" controversy that used to come up in groups that didn't really like the DM to rule death by fiat normally, but hated to roll 10d4 (or 6d8 or whatever was used) to kill off the prisoner after he has no more information.

 

[Beregar]

Personally, I have begun to think people are taking fear of save or die too far. Coup de Grace is already a full-round action, so it's not like people are free to walk around and kill whatever they want. You first have to be adjacent to target even if you use a ranged weapon.

However, I'd probably change the rule that you can't perform coup de grace if you are distracted which is to say if you take damage or someone is standing next to you. 4E seems to have a lot immediate actions so this would prevent most "problems" with coup de grace.

Edit: edited to remove stuff that would have derailed this thread

 

[Li Shenron]

Yes, but to a limit. Having the rules state that a defenceless creature can't be quickly and easily killed smashes suspension of disbelief.

My problem is that this idea is applied to the middle of combat. Six seconds to find a vital spot and deliver a precise blow while other people are still fighting around you doesn't sound realistic to me at all... I know that I wouldn't be able to do such a thing in real life, probably not even in 1 minute.

Maybe it's just that the condition of "helpless" should not apply so easily.

 

[Hairfoot]

My problem is that this idea is applied to the middle of combat. Six seconds to find a vital spot and deliver a precise blow while other people are still fighting around you doesn't sound realistic to me at all... I know that I wouldn't be able to do such a thing in real life, probably not even in 1 minute.

If anything, six seconds is too long! Don't you think a fighter, or a rogue trained to sneak attack vulnerable areas, could stab a helpless creature in the throat fairly easily?

 

[Psion]

Maybe we just need a state that is somewhere between, totally, utterly helpless and thus "coup-de-graceable", and just "helpless so that he can't do anything"?

That sounds like "stunned".

 

[med stud]

Realistically speaking, 6 seconds is more than enough to incapacitate a defenseless creature. Place sword under chin of opponent -> push hard. It takes 3 seconds max and that person won't be able to fight after that and has a big chance of not surviving. Exchange that for pushing the sword in between the eyes or something like that if the opponent is well armored. Sharp steel goes through human tissues as easily as it goes through meat from supermarkets, really.

For a trained professional I suppose it is very fast. OTOH, to kill the defenseless enemy in one move like that is another matter if you don't decapitate. Sure, the victim of the CdG won't live for long, something like 60 seconds maybe. I think a CdG could place someone at HP 0 instead of at -10.

 

[Aloïsius]

I think there is not enough of "coup de grace"-like rules. Think about the classic "one move and I slit your throat" scenario. It's basicaly impossible with the current rules.
Not fun ? What is a DM about ? Anyway, if the DM wants to kill the characters when they sleep, the problem is not with the rules, it is with the DM.