Why Shouldn't Martial Characters have powers?

[Henry]

Something is lost when you can't just play a man who trusts his steel and his wits. Damn do I feel old.

It's still there, as I said. I started out with similar reservations myself, but when I looked I didn't realize that there's plenty there even for a more classic fantasy warrior, I had just neglected it.

If looking at the Book of Nine Swords stuff as an example, plenty of stuff in the White Raven and Iron Heart dsiciplines are darned effective, and very non-magical in description. It's cool to have a D&D fighter who can slug it out, or dodge around avoiding op-attacks, but how much more cool, and still well in-character, to have him strike a blade about to hit him out of the way with a veritable "Storm of Blades" from his unbelievable parry-work? (make an attack and use the total as your AC, instead of your actual AC, immediate action).

It's great to have him yell a battle cry and charge, but what if he can use his military mind and prowess to co-ordinate a simultaneous charge of a squad of 10 men to DEVASTATE an enemy's front line? (War Master's Charge?)

Even more dramatic are the maneuvers which use a foe's power against him - it's a staple of fantasy fighting moves to leave an opening in your defenses, and then finish the enemy with their overextended counter. Feigned opening does just that. Mighty Throw lets you pull the classic "grab an enemy, throw him off-balance, and toss him 10 feet prone". There's plenty of "western fighter" room in there, but it's just mechanics that give Warrior-types a taste of resource management, combined with the kinds of things that DMs normally work into the descriptions of finshing moves in good D&D games.

 

[cerberus2112]

High Level D&D fighters kill armies by themselves. It's a long and tedious process, but since low level warriors can barely even hit him, the Level 20 Fighter in the RAW can beat hundreds of them.

The RAW would require checks to avoid fatigue, which the fighter would eventually fail. When he collapes into a heap from exhaustion, he is easily caught by several dozen coup-de-grace attempts. That's enough critical hits to eventually fell him. The long and tedious process consigns him to death, eventually . . .

 

[Deset Gled]

What makes that stance particularly puzzling is that every character class not only can wield magic via items, it's practically mandated that they do so by higher level.

Which is another something that a lot of people complain about. The Forsaker and VoP are both very popular for this reason.

Sometimes, I just want to play a character that doesn't require any magic to be effective. If I have the option to play a character that does nothing but use magic, I also want a the option to play character that uses no magic. A wizards shtick (used to be) doing something very powerful a limited number of times a day, while a fighter couldn't do anything as amazing but could do it all day long. I like having both extremes, not one extreme and middle ground.

 

[Doug McCrae]

What makes that stance particularly puzzling is that every character class not only can wield magic via items, it's practically mandated that they do so by higher level.

Yes. In high level D&D everyone has superpowers. Whether they are Green Lantern or Doctor Strange doesn't matter that much - they're both basically wizards.

 

[Mistwell]

Easy, verisimilitude.

Ah, the "realism" argument again, despite it having been debunked already multiple times in this thread.

Your fighter does things already that defy realism, and he/she does it while looking like a Christmas tree of magic items. Who are you trying to kid with this "realism" claim about fighters? With the exception of the first few levels, fighters do not adhere closely to realism.

When I play a fighter, I want to cleave skulls with my broadsword and trust in the power of muscle and steel.

You want to hit them four times in a matter of seconds at an inhuman speed, using a magical sword, protected by your magical armor. And afterwards, you want to jump an inhuman height, hold your breath for an inhuman amount of time, climb up sheer cliffs in an inhuman manner, and use inhuman feats to further enhance your already inhuman abilities.

Who are you guys trying to kid here? There is nothing "realistic" or "normal" about a mid level fighter, and a high level one is completely alien to what we know of as human abilities.

Over the top skills I can deal with. Magic powers are right out.

So you care about the flavor justification for alien actions, but you don't care about the actions themselves. So...what's stopping you from changing the flavor of things? You could ALWAYS adapt that part of the game the easiest.

This is totally a deal-breaker for me. If I can't play Conan in D&D, I'll play something else.

The only barrier to you playing Conan in 4e will be your own imagination.

 

[FourthBear]

Which is another something that a lot of people complain about. The Forsaker and VoP are both very popular for this reason.

Sometimes, I just want to play a character that doesn't require any magic to be effective. If I have the option to play a character that does nothing but use magic, I also want a the option to play character that uses no magic. A wizards shtick (used to be) doing something very powerful a limited number of times a day, while a fighter couldn't do anything as amazing but could do it all day long. I like having both extremes, not one extreme and middle ground.

That you *can* do it is one thing. It's how effective that's going to be in the game world that's the question. Obviously, you can play even a "powered" fighter and simply refuse to use or take any of the powers because it doesn't match with your character conception.

However, I don't see any clear way to balance a non-powered, martial character with a D&D style mid-to-high level magic wielder. How is the mundane, won't-even-use-magic-items character going to take on an invisible, flying mage who can teleport and fling fireballs? Or fight an incorporal death-dealing phantom? Or deal with any number of situations found in a traditional D&D campaign?

I agree with others that the D&D doesn't really have a good conception of a high level fighter. Just a Heroic fighter with bigger numbers. Unless you remove the high powered wackiness of what will be Paragon and Epic play, I think a character conception that is strictly "non-powered" will be hindered by its very narrow definition. And I don't know if we should hobble all of the other classes with wider character concepts in order to suit this.

 

[frankthedm]

Ah, the "realism" argument again, despite it having been debunked already multiple times in this thread.

Verisimilitude is not just realism. It is about the fantasty world being true to itself. Being the best swordsman in the world does not let you defy gravity.

A setting MIGHT let somone use thier life force to do so with the proper training, but that is the setting itself.

 

[Wormwood]

Warriors with superpowers doesn't necessarily mean Asian. Beowulf has superhuman strength - enough to tear off Grendel's arm. Gawaine's strength is magical, reaching a peak at noon each day. And Cúchulainn warp spasm's are just insane.

Exactly.

Since some people dislike the term 'magical' as a descriptor, how about 'mythic' instead?

 

[med stud]

Re: Lava: This is why many DMs (myself included) use a varient set of lava rules. They go: If you are immersed in lava, you die. No save. It is far easier to rewrite the lava rules than it is to rewrite the fighter class.

Re: Elephants: The 1e DMG suggested that certain attacks simply shouldn't be allowed to be effective, based upon common sense and real-world expectations. For instance, a giant centipede should not be dangerous to a storm giant. I'm not sure, though, that defeating an elephant with a dagger is physically impossible......though I'd sure as hell bet on the elephant!

If you remove lava you can add that a high level fighter can jump down two 60 ft cliffs in a row and be able to keep going afterwards. You can also add different kinds of explosions and the fact that the fighter could be blind sided by a lion without the possibility of being killed or maimed; that is outside human prowess and skills.

Even if someone is armed with a weapon capable of hurting an elephant, like a big axe or spear, I don't think it's possible in the real world for anyone to defeat a healthy, full grown elephant one on one. I just can't see how that would happen.

The existance of HP alone makes it impossible to view a high level fighter as realistic.

 

[Dragonblade]

I can certainly understand why some people like their fighters to not be magical. But I like over the top flashy effects.

Tome of Battle did a good a job of mixing disciplines that were still powerful but did not have overt magical effects like Iron Heart with disciplines that were flashy like Desert Wind.

Perhaps 4e will maintain this tradition and make everyone happy.

As an anime fan, I want to play a magical fighter that can do flashy stuff like cleave stone, make a 30ft. teleport step, and erupt flames around him. I'm hoping to see more of this in 4e, but I can understand that its not everyone's cup of tea.