Why the fear and hatred of Disjunction?

[Crothian]

Quite a few things are problematic there:

Small ones really

What other level 9 spell requires multiple sessions to be devoted to reversing it's effects?

Finally, a 9th level spell that seems powerful. And people think it's bad? And to answer your question: Wish. As it seems DM use that to mess with players more then any other spell.

As said already, since when do dungeons have signs of them indicating their level?

How many times do first level characters accidently stumble into a 10th level dungeon? Since that realrey if ever happens there must be some way people can tell. I know the reason is because of the meta game, but there is no reason PCs can't research it and find what they are looking for.

It pretty much kills suspension of disbelief.

The spell? The idea that there are going to be easy encounters in a game? The players whining?

It might not be possible. The Evil Overlord is destroying the world in two days, we're on the clock!

Then you failed. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

Meh. I just changed MDJ, it essentially acts as a chained greater dispell with no Caster Level cap or it can be used to target a single item with the standard disjoin effect. This way no one is completely screwed over with permenantly loosing all thier items.

Seems fair to me, though you should expect the chosen player with the chosen item to be really upset. If it happens to destroy something that really matters, even more upset...

Look, easy answer folks: Wish.
Allow a Wish spell - a SINGLE Wish spell - to recover all the items lost to a Mage's Disjunction - a SINGLE Mage's Disjunction. 9th level spell used to counteract a 9th level spell.

Seems fair as well. I like players brave enough to "use a wish to produce greater effects". I prefer not to try to screw them if they're not acting out of pure greed. You know, just emulating other spells is not so interesting...

Cheers,

 

[Artoomis]

I feel obligated to once again point out that very, very few archmages would willingly use MD. Too dangerous. One never knows when an artifact may be within the area of effect. Certainly at the levels where MD is likely to be available, many, if not most, PCs will have at least a minor artifact of one type or another.

It's not unreasonable for there to be four minor artifacts (or more) in a very high-level party. I'd probably consider legendary weapons to be artifacts for the purposes of this spell, given the way they are treated as far as being well-nigh indestructible, etc.

Assuming a 15th-level caster (lowest possible, normally), then that's 4 15% chances, with a probably +15 or so Will Save (+9, +6 bonuses of one type or another). Will save at DC 25 to avoid losing all spellcasting abilities, so that's a 25% chance for each Save.

Okay, now let's see if I've got my math straight

1-(.85x.85x.85x.85) = about 52% chance of at least one artifact being disjoined.

Now .25 x .52 = a 13% chance of actually losing all spellcasting abilities forever. Wish, Miracle, Clone, etc. notwithstanding. Only a deity can reverse it because no "mortal magic" can.

I'm sure the math is wrong (probability not being a strength of mine), but I am also sure that the chance is still significant, WAY over 1%.

Finally, note that at higher levels the chance of disjoining artifacts grows but the chance of making the Will save also grows as the DC is static. Eventually, if one were to actually find a way to avoid the automatic failure of a "natural 1" on the Will save and have a Will Save of at least +19, MD would be safe to use.

Clone will not avoid the effects of losing all spellcasting ability. I think a spellcaster would have to be more than a little desperate to ever use MD.

 

[Crothian]

I think a spellcaster would have to be more than a little desperate to ever use MD.

I agree, but in a thread that talks about if it is fair I think we have to assume it's going to be used.

 

[KarinsDad]

Look, easy answer folks: Wish.
Allow a Wish spell - a SINGLE Wish spell - to recover all the items lost to a Mage's Disjunction - a SINGLE Mage's Disjunction. 9th level spell used to counteract a 9th level spell.

The Fighter lost 8 items, the Cleric 1, the Rogue 6 and the Wizard 2.

Fighter: "Mr. Wizard, please cast a Wish spell so that we can get our stuff back."
Wizard: "For 5000 XP? Forget it. It'll cost me a lot less to just re-craft my stuff. XP is worth more than gold."

 

[KarinsDad]

Assuming a 15th-level caster (lowest possible, normally), then that's 4 15% chances, with a probably +15 or so Will Save (+9, +6 bonuses of one type or another). Will save at DC 25 to avoid losing all spellcasting abilities, so that's a 25% chance for each Save.

Okay, now let's see if I've got my math straight

1-(.85x.85x.85x.85) = about 52% chance of at least one artifact being disjoined.

Now .25 x .52 = a 13% chance of actually losing all spellcasting abilities forever. Wish, Miracle, Clone, etc. notwithstanding. Only a deity can reverse it because no "mortal magic" can.

I'm sure the math is wrong (probability not being a strength of mine), but I am also sure that the chance is still significant, WAY over 1%.

Finally, note that at higher levels the chance of disjoining artifacts grows but the chance of making the Will save also grows as the DC is static. Eventually, if one were to actually find a way to avoid the automatic failure of a "natural 1" on the Will save and have a Will Save of at least +19, MD would be safe to use.

Most arcane casters take Prestige Classes and some even have natural Wisdom bonuses, so your math is a little suspect.

And, archmages are not real and hence do not have real motivations. They are NPCs in a game. Most DMs probably will not think this out to the level you have. Most DMs will probably just use MD when they feel it appropriate without sitting down to do the math and say "Hmmm, should my Evil Archmage really use this spell?" In fact, a given DM might purposely use the spell just for the off chance that the players can get a real rush when the Evil Archmage neuters himself.

Just because you might not use MD in your campaign does not mean that it does not get used in other campaigns. Your argument here, although mathematically worthwhile, is irrelevant to whether the spell actually gets used in the game.

 

[NilesB]

It's not unreasonable for there to be four minor artifacts (or more) in a very high-level party.

Actually, I'd say that is a pretty unreasonable assumption. The median number of artifacts encountered per campaign (discounting those campaigns that do not go to a level where disjunction is likely to be encountered) is probably around one. Of those that are encountered the vast majority are one or more of: nonportable, consumable or undesireable.

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, I'd say that is a pretty unreasonable assumption. The median number of artifacts encountered per campaign (discounting those campaigns that do not go to a level where disjunction is likely to be encountered) is probably around one. Of those that are encountered the vast majority are one or more of: nonportable, consumable or undesireable.

Agreed.

Multiple Relics, maybe. Multiple Artifacts being carried around by the PCs? Not in any game I've ever been in or heard of.

 

[billd91]

Just because you might not use MD in your campaign does not mean that it does not get used in other campaigns. Your argument here, although mathematically worthwhile, is irrelevant to whether the spell actually gets used in the game.

You know, guys like Crothian and myself might say that your conception of what counts as fun is equally as irrelevant to whether or not the spell is worthwhile or appropriate to have in the game.
If it's not fun for your style of running things, you won't use it. If it's appropriate to another DM's style of running things, he will. D&D is more about offering tools to particular tables than requiring all tables to use all of those tools.

 

[IcyCool]

The Fighter lost 8 items, the Cleric 1, the Rogue 6 and the Wizard 2.

Fighter: "Mr. Wizard, please cast a Wish spell so that we can get our stuff back."
Wizard: "For 5000 XP? Forget it. It'll cost me a lot less to just re-craft my stuff. XP is worth more than gold."

Well, there's your problem right there. The PC's don't like each other and apparently can't operate well in a team. It's a miracle they made it to that level anyway.