D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

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Yet, despite all that, some of his "greatest" feats of magic--helping to turn the tide of wars--are pretty clearly at far lower power.

The problem with Wizards in 5e--as it has been in nearly every edition of D&D--is that they absorb the powers of dozens of media. Gandalf has a bazillion limitations on him that Wizards don't. Or, as I put it previously:


If it can be viewed as a spell, it can be structured as something the D&D Wizard can do--with the lone exception of specifically healing/restoring magics, as that is the one thing Wizards have been told they aren't allowed to do (unless, of course, they bring in the rule-breaking spells like anyspell and, of course, wish, which can do anything.)


"The D&D Wizard has the power of Gandalf or (Malory's) Merlin, the versatility of Dumbledore or (Disney's) Merlin, and the frequency of Doctor Fate or (DC Comics) Merlin. That is, phenomenal cosmic power (up to and including literally rewriting reality), the ability to perform almost any act one might want to if you just have enough time to research the appropriate spell, and a power supply that is theoretically limited but practically inexhaustible because it's always at least somewhat under the Wizard's control."

So the last one Gandalf has. His power supply is practically inexhaustible and is under his control. As for the first two bolded portions, you can make a wizard that doesn't take wish, but instead has foresight. And then do the same for the other levels. Gandalf is told to keep a low profile, so he's not going to be running around altering reality and being super flashy. His spells are going to be lower key.
 

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"The D&D Wizard has the power of Gandalf or (Malory's) Merlin, the versatility of Dumbledore or (Disney's) Merlin, and the frequency of Doctor Fate or (DC Comics) Merlin. That is, phenomenal cosmic power (up to and including literally rewriting reality), the ability to perform almost any act one might want to if you just have enough time to research the appropriate spell, and a power supply that is theoretically limited but practically inexhaustible because it's always at least somewhat under the Wizard's control."

So the last one Gandalf has. His power supply is practically inexhaustible and is under his control. As for the first two bolded portions, you can make a wizard that doesn't take wish, but instead has foresight. And then do the same for the other levels. Gandalf is told to keep a low profile, so he's not going to be running around altering reality and being super flashy. His spells are going to be lower key.
No, it is not "practically inexhaustible." If it were, he would have defeated the Balrog no sweat. Instead, it DID kill him, sending his soul beyond the circles of the world, and Eru Iluvatar sent him back. His resources are, in fact, quite finite--and he further knows that if he tried to take Sauron one-on-one, he would lose. His resources are not practically inexhaustible the way a D&D Wizard's are, where they can warp reality every time they get a good night's sleep.

Self-limitation is irrelevant! The Wizard class still has the capability, you simply chose not to pick it up. All that means is, YOU decided not to become a miniature god. That's not a limit on the class's power, that's the player deigning to descend to the level of merely demigod.
 

No, it is not "practically inexhaustible." If it were, he would have defeated the Balrog no sweat. Instead, it DID kill him, sending his soul beyond the circles of the world, and Eru Iluvatar sent him back. His resources are, in fact, quite finite--and he further knows that if he tried to take Sauron one-on-one, he would lose. His resources are not practically inexhaustible the way a D&D Wizard's are, where they can warp reality every time they get a good night's sleep.
If being killed means your resources are not practically inexhaustible, then that applies to D&D wizards, too. They can also be killed by a balor or some other creature. What's more, his death does not mean that his power was not inexhaustible. It just means that he came up against an enemy just as powerful as he was. They both could have died still hurling power at one another.
Self-limitation is irrelevant! The Wizard class still has the capability, you simply chose not to pick it up. All that means is, YOU decided not to become a miniature god. That's not a limit on the class's power, that's the player deigning to descend to the level of merely demigod.
Self-limitation is relevant because Gandalf self-limited. That's 20th level ability we see due to him taking out a CR 19 or 20 creature is not even his full power. Maybe he could warp reality and hurl magic like a D&D wizard or Merlin. Maybe he could surpass them.
 

In 1E/2E, casters had an uphill struggle XP-wise, were hideously vulnerable without magic items or powerful magic to protect them, and could easily be stopped from casting spells - and many of their spells took a while to cast and/or cost the earth (in a situation where money mattered more).
A quibble re XP.

On the AD&D XP tables, a MU sits behind the fighter up to and including 6th level (35 vs 40 thousand). But from 7th to 13th level inclusive, the MU needs fewer XP (and sometimes is a full level ahead - eg a 10th level MU needs the same 250 thousand XP as a 9th level fighter; needs fewer XP than the fighter to gain their next level; and will reach 12th with the same 750 thousand that the fighter needs for 11th). Both need 1.5 million to reach 14th, and thereafter the fighter earns three levels to the MUs two.

Personally I've always thought that it's a weird bit of design that, at just about the same point the MU starts to become a dominant build vis-a-vis the fighter, they also get a level boost.
 

If being killed means your resources are not practically inexhaustible, then that applies to D&D wizards, too. They can also be killed by a balor or some other creature. What's more, his death does not mean that his power was not inexhaustible. It just means that he came up against an enemy just as powerful as he was. They both could have died still hurling power at one another.
Except that, again as stated, the Wizard player has a great deal of control over this stuff. Gandalf doesn't. Indeed, he didn't even want to go through Moria at all.

You can keep citing this example as long as you like. Gandalf is simply, straight-up, explicitly more limited than an even moderately high-level D&D Wizard. Period. This is a fact.

Self-limitation is relevant because Gandalf self-limited
No, he isn't. He's limited by the people who gave him power in the first place. He is a divine messenger. Even in the LotR books, it's quite explicit that he was sent for a mission, and that mission explicitly required that he NOT use his powers to control.

He says something as good as that, less than halfway through the first book.
"No!" cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. "With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly." His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. "Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me."
 

Except that, again as stated, the Wizard player has a great deal of control over this stuff. Gandalf doesn't. Indeed, he didn't even want to go through Moria at all.

You can keep citing this example as long as you like. Gandalf is simply, straight-up, explicitly more limited than an even moderately high-level D&D Wizard. Period. This is a fact.
But if he has the power and is self-limiting, then he still has the control. He's just opting not to use it as any D&D wizard can also do.
No, he isn't. He's limited by the people who gave him power in the first place. He is a divine messenger. Even in the LotR books, it's quite explicit that he was sent for a mission, and that mission explicitly required that he NOT use his powers to control.
Yes he absolutely is. They did not shackle his powers. He is free to disobey that mandate at any time. Saruman did.
He says something as good as that, less than halfway through the first book.
That quote has absolutely nothing to do with self-limiting his power. That quote is an acknowledgement that the ring's corruptive influence is more than he can withstand and he would fall from grace if he wore it. Galadriel said the same thing and she's not a maia or limited on her power and influence.
 

But if he has the power and is self-limiting, then he still has the control. He's just opting not to use it as any D&D wizard can also do.

Yes he absolutely is. They did not shackle his powers. He is free to disobey that mandate at any time. Saruman did.

That quote has absolutely nothing to do with self-limiting his power. That quote is an acknowledgement that the ring's corruptive influence is more than he can withstand and he would fall from grace if he wore it. Galadriel said the same thing and she's not a maia or limited on her power and influence.
Okay, yep, done. Not playing the definition game with you again. You are incorrect, and there is literally no benefit to continuing to discuss it with you.
 

Okay, yep, done. Not playing the definition game with you again. You are incorrect, and there is literally no benefit to continuing to discuss it with you.
Must be nice to be able to just declare someone to be incorrect and then walk off. It's a classy move.
 

I have lost the plot of this thread. What is this about? Wizards?

Looking at the original inspiration of D&D wizards, Vance, the D&D version has over the years gotten far more versatile compared to its source. I have to say I kinda like the original where each spell is powerful but rare over the current spamming of magic lasers. I feel casters these days have too many spell slots, and to tie back to the actual topic of D&D being a game, I also think it is more interesting game-wise if you actually need to make hard decisions about your resources.
 

I have lost the plot of this thread. What is this about? Wizards?

Looking at the original inspiration of D&D wizards, Vance, the D&D version has over the years gotten far more versatile compared to its source. I have to say I kinda like the original where each spell is powerful but rare over the current spamming of magic lasers. I feel casters these days have too many spell slots, and to tie back to the actual topic of D&D being a game, I also think it is more interesting game-wise if you actually need to make hard decisions about your resources.
I am sympathetic to these concerns, but there's a countervailing concern that is arguably stronger, and part of what brings people in to D&D things. (There's a reason it's one of the few things semi-common between 4e and PF1e.)

That is, class fantasy. One of the benefits of a class-based game, as opposed to other approaches like pure point-buy or short-run "kits" you stitch together over time, is that classes offer (I would say "promise") a particular class fantasy: an experience that the player can then embellish, alter, defy, or question. Paladin offers the Knight in Shining Armor class fantasy, the devoted servant empowered to fulfill an oath unto the bitter end (whether that oath be for weal or for woe.) Warlock offers the Faustian Bargain class fantasy, patron and client using one another, the heroic client wresting power from the hubristic patron, the villainous client inevitably undone by their foolishly biased exchange. Sorcerer offers the Inborn Power class fantasy: to awaken one day and find power flows in your very veins, and now you are connected to something both influential and dangerous without your intent. Druid offers the One With Nature class fantasy, someone who straddles the line between savage and civic, between man and beast, between material and spiritual--and blurs that line whenever it is advantageous to do so. Etc.

Fulfilling that class fantasy on the regular, not just at long intervals, is an important gamist consideration, believe it or not. The game can, and should, make you feel like these class choices really matter. (This is just one of several reasons why it is necessary to pursue asymmetrical balance in game design, not merely aesthetic design.)

The problem is, the ultra-classic Vancian structure is directly, intentionally, incompatible with feeling that class fantasy mattering on the regular. The whole point is that it can only matter rarely, but in a big way. This is putting all one's eggs in a single basket, with predictable results: the big moments really hit, but the duds hurt even more. Their rarity does sweeten them, but the droughts between draughts can parch, badly. Especially when you know that other players are getting to do their thing quite regularly.

If you have a better solution than simply going back to that boom-and-bust approach, I'd love to hear it, but honestly, I don't think there really is one. The whole point of the Vancian structure is to punctuate rare dramatic moments--which is fine, because that's part of telling a prewritten narrative, where the author's whole job is making sure that those moments really land. I don't think it translates well to TTRPGs for the same reason I don't think the structure of psychohistory (since I've recently been re-reading Asimov's work) translates well to TTRPGs. The scope is...just off.

Some amount of concession to "actually fulfilling the class fantasy in the small moments" is unavoidable, I think. Anything less will chafe. So, what concessions are sufficient without being excessive--since you find the current situation excessive? These come to mind (but are far from comprehensive, I'm sure):
  • Cantrips remain as they are or toned down a little, but spells are much more sharply limited, perhaps slightly increased in power. A Wizard deploys perhaps two or three Spells a day, but they should generally be devastating when they are. Outside of that, though, they are left with relatively weak cantrips, not useless, but clearly feeble magic in comparison to their phenomenal power. (This is, effectively, "status quo tweaked." That makes it both more likely to work out, and more likely to leave everyone dissatisfied, as such things so often go.)
  • Cantrips become more like ammunition. You don't have only four cantrips a day flat, but you also can't use them indefinitely. Like having an arrow of quivers. Perhaps preparing the same cantrip twice lets you use it more often? (This is, essentially, going back to the old way with a slight tweak for approachability--and carries most of the problems associated with going back to old ways.)
  • The old 3e "reserve feat" concept. That is, as long as you have a prepared spell of <type>, you can perform a cantrip-like effect. This would need to be adjusted since spells are no longer prepared into specific slots anymore, but I'm sure something could be done.
  • "Recharge" or some other mechanic like that, where the Wizard can periodically (e.g., per short rest) regain some of their weaker mojo (perhaps based on spell slots they've consumed or schools they've cast that day?) through resting and meditation etc. Essentially, your power tapers off, rather than being a flash-and-fizzle situation.
  • The Spheres of Power type system, where magic becomes much more focused. I rather like this approach, but it does diverge quite far from where D&D's magic system came from.
  • The obvious, but IMO exceedingly unlikely, "make magic painful/dangerous to use." I personally think this is an absolute non-starter that would never appeal to enough people.
Have you any other ideas how to address this gap, between the desire for punchy-but-rare spells, and the pretty demonstrable need for fulfilling class fantasy at the table on the regular?
 

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