Why there's crafting in WOW and not in D&D

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I never understood the CRAFTING DOESN'T BELONG OH GOD OH GOD THE THOUGHT ALONE HURTS bit.

Know what's exciting? A low magic setting in which your party fights and gets by the edge of their teeth in order to find enough of a magical metal to make a weapon. And one of said party members is now an awesome smith, so he MAKES that damn weapon with the metal, and it's awesome.

The problem with craft was that it had a very early cut off on when it was still useful. You couldn't make really great items non-magically in most settings (which I also never understood, as, correct me if I'm wrong, but lots of folklore have very un-magical smiths make very awesomely magical weapons). Instead of hacking out craft, they should've done the OPPOSITE, and expanded it.

So, where's the conflict? Why do they need to roll a skill check to see if the hard work they put in finding that magic metal is going to waste or not?

But why not combine the two? What if your merchants-and-smiths need to go fight a dragon guarding a vein of rare ore, which will make the whole group rich? What if your fighters-and-wizards need to introduce political instability, but are unable to do so with violent means - so they decide to attempt to disrupt the economy of the capital city to induce a peasant revolution?

What kind of merchants and smiths can hope to fight against a dragon? Where did they get all that combat training if they are just merchants and smiths?

And then, would I want to see 2 pages or so devoted to Craft and Profession in the PHB that could have been two Paragon Paths or 2 Epic Destinies? Absolutely not - in my egoistical view, Craft & Profession are a waste, since I will most likely never roll on Craft or Profession, but my Paragon Path and my Epic Destiny will get used eventually!

 

[Orius]

The reason you can have a "more robust and flexible" crafting system in WoW than in D&D is that the WoW system is centered around grinding materials.

I completely agree. NO ONE playing around a tabletop is going to want to sit still for grind crafting, especially if one player is goingg to spend 2-3 hours holding everyone else up to grind.

 

[Fenes]

And then, would I want to see 2 pages or so devoted to Craft and Profession in the PHB that could have been two Paragon Paths or 2 Epic Destinies? Absolutely not - in my egoistical view, Craft & Profession are a waste, since I will most likely never roll on Craft or Profession, but my Paragon Path and my Epic Destiny will get used eventually!

And that's why 4E is not that appealing to everyone - it is too streamlined to the "Let's just kill stuff" playstyle. There's not enough space for alternate playstyles.

 

[jmucchiello]

But why not combine the two? What if your merchants-and-smiths need to go fight a dragon guarding a vein of rare ore, which will make the whole group rich? What if your fighters-and-wizards need to introduce political instability, but are unable to do so with violent means - so they decide to attempt to disrupt the economy of the capital city to induce a peasant revolution?

Sounds like a skill challenge or a series of skill challenges (A skill major quest?) The skills you need are all there. Mercantile pursuits require a set of skills based on bluff, diplomacy, history, streetwise, and insight. Smithing is arcana or dungeoneering. Inciting rebellion requires diplomacy, streetwise, history and bluff.

The DMG says something about a long term skill challenges. So you and your friends get together an start a revolution. Roll a few history and bluff checks to foment unrest based on past ills. Every time you fail the skill challenge the king sends a squad of town guards (or an assassin squad) after you for causing unrest.

But even in a party of smiths and merchant I can't imagine sitting around a table rolls dice over and over to see if someone can make the masterwork plate mail. The crafting part of the process is silly. And I've been in plenty of games where my characters have owned businesses and done short and long distance trade. We always handled it through henchmen and hirelings. My 15th level fighter is going down to the docks to make sure 200 bolts of Kreean Silk is unloaded safely. Compared to the magic items decorating my body, the silk may as well be a burlap sack.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

And that's why 4E is not that appealing to everyone - it is too streamlined to the "Let's just kill stuff" playstyle. There's not enough space for alternate playstyles.

There is, astoundingly, a lot of space for alternate playstyles. The problem is you have to improvise a little more. But the basic framework is so incredibly solid that it would be very easy to create subsystems that cover aspects like craft & profession in the system.

If you got tired of problems with other games (be it 3E, Warhammer, GURPS, Das Schwarze Auge or whatever else), take 4E and add the subsystem you need with some house rules.
The combat system works and the classes are better balanced then in most games. The math is easy to grasp and the effect of changes can be predicted with even little experience.

If you really need Craft & Profession, the easiest thing you can do is to add them as skills and have every character choose one Craft or Profession.
Heck, you don't even need new skills - just use the existing skills and say which one can be used for Crafts or Profession. Diplomacy and Insight for merchants, Endurance and History for blacksmiths, Athletics and History for Miners, Nature and History for weavers.

 

[Fenes]

Um, those that support a robust Crafting System, do you ALSO support level-limited items and the removal of the magic item buying market.

This CAN NOT be ignored if you want a Crafting system that is anything decent.

Pick your poison.

That makes no sense. You can easily have a minimum level to create an item, and have magic shops, all without having level limits on item use - 3E did that.

 

[Fenes]

There is, astoundingly, a lot of space for alternate playstyles. The problem is you have to improvise a little more. But the basic framework is so incredibly solid that it would be very easy to create subsystems that cover aspects like craft & profession in the system.

If you got tired of problems with other games (be it 3E, Warhammer, GURPS, Das Schwarze Auge or whatever else), take 4E and add the subsystem you need with some house rules.
The combat system works and the classes are better balanced then in most games. The math is easy to grasp and the effect of changes can be predicted with even little experience.

If you really need Craft & Profession, the easiest thing you can do is to add them as skills and have every character choose one Craft or Profession.
Heck, you don't even need new skills - just use the existing skills and say which one can be used for Crafts or Profession. Diplomacy and Insight for merchants, Endurance and History for blacksmiths, Athletics and History for Miners, Nature and History for weavers.

I can just as well (more easily, actually) take what works - 3E - and add what I want from 4E - not so much - to it. That way I have a more detailed skill and crafting system, and even a performance skill to boot.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I can just as well (more easily, actually) take what works - 3E - and add what I want from 4E - not so much - to it. That way I have a more detailed skill and crafting system, and even a performance skill to boot.

Yes, you can do that, and it might work for you.
But if I did that, I still had a complicated mess of a system that plays badly at high levels, where spellcaster class abilities overshadow other class abilities and define the nature of the game, and a game I didn't really enjoy to DM (playing was fine, most of the time). I think the other way around is way easier for me.

 

[Fenes]

Yes, you can do that, and it might work for you.
But if I did that, I still had a complicated mess of a system that plays badly at high levels, where spellcaster class abilities overshadow other class abilities and define the nature of the game, and a game I didn't really enjoy to DM (playing was fine, most of the time). I think the other way around is way easier for me.

Far easier for me to balance spellcasters than to try to get my players to adapt to the "you can only do a trip once a day" way of thinking.

(And, yes, of course youcan find ways around this, or use stunts in place of specials, but frankly, that's starting to go very far into "house rule" territory, and coming very close to a house ruled 3E.)

 

[AllisterH]

That makes no sense. You can easily have a minimum level to create an item, and have magic shops, all without having level limits on item use - 3E did that.

Um, you do realize this is simple right?

Let's assume for example an item sells for X but it only costs x/2 to make.

Profit is x/2. Repeat 10 times and you end up with 5X.

3.x got around that problem by having the wealth by level chart which allowed the DM to insure you didn't exceed your wealth level (presumably if you had more wealth, the DM was expected to whack you with a money draining adventure) and the MAIN fact that the magic item crafting rules were an xp drain.

Of course, the 3.x system magic item economy broke down horribly if you could get around that and of course, "spellcasters" could.

Wall of Iron anyone?