Why there's crafting in WOW and not in D&D

[garyh]

What if the group - the entire group - wants to play a group of merchants and smiths, working out of a small town? Now all those things you claim are just "flavor" are important.

I would argue that such a campaign would be well outside the norm for most players, and that such a group would be better served by another system. In a broader gaming context, that's the reason there's an entire aisle of board games at the toy store, and not just Monopoly. Sometimes you want to play Clue instead.

Why can't the game support that, and the combat-heavy and "heroic" games that folk such as yourself enjoy? I don't see a reason for a system to cater specifically to one or the other. There's no reason the system shouldn't be able to support any style of play.

There's no way one game will ever support any and every style of play. There are countless campaigns out there, and expecting one system to fit all of them out of the box is unrealistic. The reason D&D focuses on "combat-heavy" and "heroic" is that... it's D&D. That's what it always has done, and always will do. The same reason Clue focuses on deducing the murderer and not charging rent for hotels. It's what the game's about.

 

[GnomeWorks]

I would argue that such a campaign would be well outside the norm for most players, and that such a group would be better served by another system. In a broader gaming context, that's the reason there's an entire aisle of board games at the toy store, and not just Monopoly. Sometimes you want to play Clue instead.

But why not combine the two? What if your merchants-and-smiths need to go fight a dragon guarding a vein of rare ore, which will make the whole group rich? What if your fighters-and-wizards need to introduce political instability, but are unable to do so with violent means - so they decide to attempt to disrupt the economy of the capital city to induce a peasant revolution?

Characters and their goals do not exist in a vacuum. The system should be able to account for characters branching and doing things that are not immediately related to their original goals.

There's no way one game will ever support any and every style of play. There are countless campaigns out there, and expecting one system to fit all of them out of the box is unrealistic. The reason D&D focuses on "combat-heavy" and "heroic" is that... it's D&D. That's what it always has done, and always will do. The same reason Clue focuses on deducing the murderer and not charging rent for hotels. It's what the game's about.

I do not disagree with you regarding what D&D is about, but I feel that gaming can - and perhaps even should - be much more, and I don't think that it would be ridiculous to have a game support most styles of play.

It's not just about killing things and taking their stuff in a "heroic" fashion. It's escapism, it's exploration, it's freedom to do things that we can't do in our daily lives here in reality. Fighting monsters should be part of that, yes, if that's your cup of tea, but it should not end there, either.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

A WoW-like crafting system is utterly wrong for D&D. Crafting in MMORPGs is there for those times when you start earlier or play later than your guildmates. It's nothing more or less than a timesink.

For you. For others, it's the whole point of playing an MMO. As was said, that's not a common way to go in D&D, but I don't know that this wouldn't be a good system for WotC to add in whatever their loot book is called this week. (Or for a third party publisher to create.)

It's also a way for characters on a new server (which WoW in particular has regularly) to have some say over what kind of gear they have, before a robust player-driven economy has grown up. As an alternative to Magic-Mart, this is a pretty reasonable reason to do it in D&D.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

The OP absolutely understands the difference. As a matter of fact, he is discussing the differences between the two. Specifically, why the computer game has something better than the table game does, when it seems that it it should be easier (logically and historically) to do it in the table game.

I four won dont understand why discussing two different interactive, level based, combat oriented fantasy games at the same time is so much of a afront to you.

Sorry. My evil, less intelligent twin who is a 4e fan got a hold of the computer.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I never understood the CRAFTING DOESN'T BELONG OH GOD OH GOD THE THOUGHT ALONE HURTS bit.

Know what's exciting? A low magic setting in which your party fights and gets by the edge of their teeth in order to find enough of a magical metal to make a weapon. And one of said party members is now an awesome smith, so he MAKES that damn weapon with the metal, and it's awesome.

The problem with craft was that it had a very early cut off on when it was still useful. You couldn't make really great items non-magically in most settings (which I also never understood, as, correct me if I'm wrong, but lots of folklore have very un-magical smiths make very awesomely magical weapons). Instead of hacking out craft, they should've done the OPPOSITE, and expanded it.

 

[Ahglock]

Considering how other skills were combined it wouldn't of been a stretch to just have the craft skill and maybe an artisan skill or something. Make ti so crafting made useful items at all levels and provided a benefit, make the rules as quick to adjudicate as other skills and I'm happy.

 

[Ahglock]

One of our sometimes-players monopolized the DM's attention for a good half hour one session talking about making leather armor...for giants. I distinctly remembering the DM's eyes having a look of "Why are you wasting my time on this?"

(shudder)

I, for one, am a fan of the 4e ritual.

Brad

Any time any player monopolizes the time its bad. I don't care if its super talky guy wowing the prince in "great" role played out negotiations, or mister stealth sneaking in by him self to scout out the base, or a crafter. It always sucks for everyone but the one using the time.

Its why deckers always suck in SR, its not that they don't perform a good role, or that it isn't a cool concept, its that its a one player focus for 30 minutes while all his crap is played out.

 

[AtomicPope]

I'll give you profession, but not craft. If you were a blacksmith, then you should be able to blacksmith. I don't think it's horrifying to expect a player to be able to back up their back story.

Plus, it gives way to some fun occasions, like a rogue who completely lies about his back story several times and later has to improvise a way to prove it. Hilarity ensues!

Yeah, it's the funniest thing ever. Almost as funny as a character who wasted skill points on profession

There are no hard rules for how much money a character with any profession skill will make in 3e. How much money will a black smith with 20 ranks in Profession make a month? If he makes a DC 40 check how much money will he make?

I'll tell you how much a character will make from killing a Dragon - double standard.

 

[Nightson]

Adding craft skills takes all of five minutes. Give each character one or two skills soley for craft/profession from backstory. Import the crafting rules straight from 3.x edition. Or make up better ones.



I wouldn't mind seeing crafting rules out in a splat book, hopefully done in a better manner then 3.x. But I'm glad they didn't just stick them in the Player's Handbook.

 

[AllisterH]

Um, those that support a robust Crafting System, do you ALSO support level-limited items and the removal of the magic item buying market.

This CAN NOT be ignored if you want a Crafting system that is anything decent.

Pick your poison.