Why there's crafting in WOW and not in D&D

[AllisterH]

I think scaling level limits on items (healing and damage can only work at a level-appropriate power level, even if the "real" version of the magic item's power is higher, and the power level doesn't scale up beyond that) is a pretty reasonable addition to D&D magic items and would let the older style of magic item creation work.

Sure, that level 1 wizard can be armed with a wand of fireballs, but the fireballs only do 1d4 damage. Go nuts.

Heh, I kinda agree with you.

Only problem is how does this work with magical items that aren't level-based?

Personally, you got more cojones than me, because as a designer, you're asking an even LARGER community of D&D fans to tar and feather you

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Craft and profession skills are a tax on people who believe characterization and back-story are important.

-O

I'll give you profession, but not craft. If you were a blacksmith, then you should be able to blacksmith. I don't think it's horrifying to expect a player to be able to back up their back story.

Plus, it gives way to some fun occasions, like a rogue who completely lies about his back story several times and later has to improvise a way to prove it. Hilarity ensues!


As for "Unlimited number of items that can be made, what are the prices?" I think one of the (few) good things in the WoW RPG was their rules for making new technological items. It was fairly simplistic and had the player make a basic idea of what the device does and gave rules on how different components had different cost modifiers. Add in a dose of the DM making sure nothing got extreme, and it was great.

 

[Obryn]

I'll give you profession, but not craft. If you were a blacksmith, then you should be able to blacksmith. I don't think it's horrifying to expect a player to be able to back up their back story.

Plus, it gives way to some fun occasions, like a rogue who completely lies about his back story several times and later has to improvise a way to prove it. Hilarity ensues!

I don't think you should need to spend skill points in order to do this. In the latter case, it seems like a clear use of the Bluff skill...

As for the first part, I don't see why you wouldn't let a character back up their backstory, despite there being no craft/profession skills.

-O

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I have never played WoW, but from what I gather, grinding for materials is a rather solitary experience.

In D&D, there's usually around four people at the table. As much as it is annoying for the rest of the group if one player grabs the spotlight by being an actual thief, robbing houses and merchants and all that, any amount of interesting (ie. more than a roll or two) crafting will get the others players bored quick.

For me: Bye crafting rules, and good riddance.

One of our sometimes-players monopolized the DM's attention for a good half hour one session talking about making leather armor...for giants. I distinctly remembering the DM's eyes having a look of "Why are you wasting my time on this?"

(shudder)

I, for one, am a fan of the 4e ritual.

Brad

 

[AllisterH]

I'll give you profession, but not craft. If you were a blacksmith, then you should be able to blacksmith. I don't think it's horrifying to expect a player to be able to back up their back story.

.

At the cost of skills that will see use MUCH more often.

Good riddance to that. I hated the fact that fighters, hell pretty much anybody with 4 SP or less had to choose between "Profession: Baker" and "spot".

It's like making a person choose between Timestop and Comprehend Languages at THE SAME LEVEL and COST.

 

[Lord Byron]

In 3.5 I had to be a slightly worse adventurer in order to have a profession or a craft. In 4th, I don't. Having a back story has not changed.

 

[Zaruthustran]

A WoW-like crafting system is utterly wrong for D&D. Crafting in MMORPGs is there for those times when you start earlier or play later than your guildmates. It's nothing more or less than a timesink.

D&D is a game of heroic fantasy. It's a game meant to be played with others, around a table. Neither of those facts are compatible with an MMO-style crafting system. Your three friends and the DM don't want to sit around and watch Bob the Blacksmith's player rolling over and over with himself, turning ore into metal into items. That's not heroic. That's not even interesting.

Instead, if you're Bob's player, just declare that you're a blacksmith. You can make stuff out of metal. That's great--good for you. Now get on with the whole reason you and your pals arranged to meet tonight, and play some D&D!

If it ever becomes important to know just *how* good a blacksmith you are, just work it out with your friends. Chances are, they'll figure you can crank out decent-quality basic goods, but you're not going to take Thorin Hammerhand, scion of the Moradin's Own clan, in a blacksmithing challenge. Or heck, maybe you can be the world's greatest blacksmith if that's the kind of campaign you're going for. Point is, the game mechanics don't care, and trusts that you and your group can competently manage your own flavor.

 

[Staffan]

I might have to take another look at the rules then. Are there crafting rules for making magic items that does not require the "poop" of other items? If not then how were the first items made?

Enchant Item is an ritual linked to the Arcana skill, which means it uses various alchemical stuff as components. You can also use Disenchant Item to turn an existing item into Residuum, which can be used as a component for any ritual (including, but not limited to, Enchant Item).

A WoW-like crafting system is utterly wrong for D&D. Crafting in MMORPGs is there for those times when you start earlier or play later than your guildmates. It's nothing more or less than a timesink.

My point exactly.

 

[thatdarnedbob]

I'll give you profession, but not craft. If you were a blacksmith, then you should be able to blacksmith. I don't think it's horrifying to expect a player to be able to back up their back story.

So are you saying that if a 4th edition fighter wanted his character to have been a blacksmith, you'd say no because there's not a blacksmithing rule in the PHB?

 

[GnomeWorks]

Instead, if you're Bob's player, just declare that you're a blacksmith. You can make stuff out of metal. That's great--good for you. Now get on with the whole reason you and your pals arranged to meet tonight, and play some D&D!

It's sentiments like this that have made me move away from D&D.

What if the group - the entire group - wants to play a group of merchants and smiths, working out of a small town? Now all those things you claim are just "flavor" are important.

Why can't the game support that, and the combat-heavy and "heroic" games that folk such as yourself enjoy? I don't see a reason for a system to cater specifically to one or the other. There's no reason the system shouldn't be able to support any style of play.

I imagine that one of the underlying factors is how XP is gained - killing things and taking their stuff. Nothing other than combat-related abilities are seen as valuable in such a system; everything beyond it is just "fluff" or "flavor."

In thinking about it, I would think that the majority of the mindset of those who support 4e's removal of crafting and such is an effect of the nature of character advancement. Craft: Cheesemaking does not help the party slay critters, which is how advancement is attained, and thus the Craft skill is seen as inherently inferior to a combat- or adventure-enabling skill.

The problem of limited time is related, though I don't think it's the cause of this approach, and I think there's a bit of a strawman going on - I'd think that a system that supported crafting and such would have a way to streamline it so that one player didn't monopolize the DM's time, at least not more than necessary. A system that allowed for a player to suck up half-an-hour of DM time would get annoying, fast, and I don't think that anyone that advocates craft rules would really go for that.