Why won't you switch?

[HeavenShallBurn]

So, because a person says HE is having more fun with 4e than HE would with 3e in the same situation means that HE'S saying YOU'RE not having fun with 3e? That sounds awfully close to ascribing a motivation to him that doesn't exist anywhere but in your head. So, people saying they have more fun with the new version of your favorite game than the old version rubs you the wrong way... maybe you should figure out why someone else liking the newest version more than your favorite version makes you so upset, since it's in no way their fault that you feel that way. You (and others) seem to be creating statements (like they keep saying 3e wasn't fun for anyone) based on your personal feelings about previous editions, rather than any actual facts.

Or you know it might be that some of us find those statements fake sounding marketing department hype when we hear it. That we don't necessarily think it's anyone's opinion beyond the attempt to sell their product via the tradition word of mouth "it's so great!" campaign. Essentially the more stake you have in the outcome of the events the less trustworthy you are. If you're employed full time by the company producing something then no matter if you're a living saint and the next Ghandi you can't be trusted with regards to that product because you're too invested in it.

Now I'll say that I believe Ari when he says he loves the new edition and it's right up his alley. It's bound to be the right game for a lot of people just because it was designed by a capable team.

 

[Hussar]

In all honestly, I likely won't be switching. At least not for a couple of years. I'm just starting up a Savage Tide campaign next month or so and I have no particular interest in giving up on that project right now. I've been looking forward to it for a long time.

Now, if Paizo could get their act together and finish off their web enhancements, that would be even better, but, I realize that actually supporting former customers is a low priority. As an aside, I notice how so many bash WOTC for their poor showing online, yet, the fact that we've been waiting for almost nine months for web enhancements merits nary a peep. But, then, I'm just a wee bitter right now.

In any case, I think that 4e looks interesting and I actually do like a lot of the changes that they've made, and I make an effort to try to curb the larger of the claims that get made around here, but, no, I'm not going to be making the switch for some time to come.

If nothing else, I remember the debacle the first release 3e PHB was. Gack, talk about badly editted crap. I'll wait until the second printing thanks.

 

[Khairn]

People liking something doesn't rub me raw. It's feeling that they are disparaging my enjoyment of the older edition that is the cause of this friction.

QFT

Of all WotC's marketing plans for the launch of 4E, their efforts to build up 4E's "improvements" by stating how bad certain parts of 3E are, have been the most consistently irritating. From the very first announcement at Gen-Con, to many of the previews and play-tests we've received over the past few months, stating how 3E= badwrongfun and 4E is therefore better has become an almost corporate mantra.

 

[Hussar]

QFT

Of all WotC's marketing plans for the launch of 4E, their efforts to build up 4E's "improvements" by stating how bad certain parts of 3E are, have been the most consistently irritating. From the very first announcement at Gen-Con, to many of the previews and play-tests we've received over the past few months, stating how 3E= badwrongfun and 4E is therefore better has become an almost corporate mantra.

I really don't want to derail what has been a very civil thread so far, but, I really have to question this.

I mean, look at what they've pointed to - grappling for example. You can find literally hundreds of threads just on En World discussing grappling. For pages and pages. So, when WOTC goes ahead and says, "Hey, grappling sucks, we're going to fix it" are they really saying anything new? We as gamers have had lots and lots of problems with this issue. Maybe you didn't, and maybe I didn't, but that doesn't change the fact that lots and lots of people did.

So, is it really wrong for WOTC to stand up and say, "Hey, I know we wrote this, but, y'know, it sucks. We're going to fix this. Wait two more weeks, at Winter X and you'll find out exactly how it was fixed."

Replace grapple with just about any other major issue and it's the same - Save or Die, Level draining, 15 minute adventuring day etc. These are all things we've talked about and have been talking about, round and round, for years. How is them saying, "Hey, this sucks" a bad thing?

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Many reasons that have already been touched on, like cost, lack of enthusiasm for the fluff changes, differences between monsters/npcs and PCs and the lack of certain races and classes in the system at release...

But as I've read this forum, a reason I never would have been expected has been added. Lately it seems like every time I see a post by a 4e developer here, my desire to buy their product drops that tiny extra notch. :\ I don't know if someone but crankyjuice in the water fountains over at WotC or what, but at this point it would be a leap of faith to invest in 4e, and why make that leap for people who come onto a board I like and belittle posters?

 

[Khairn]

Replace grapple with just about any other major issue and it's the same - Save or Die, Level draining, 15 minute adventuring day etc. These are all things we've talked about and have been talking about, round and round, for years. How is them saying, "Hey, this sucks" a bad thing?

I agree that I don't want to derail this thread so I will only reply once. Perhaps we can get another thread going to share opinions if need be.

First let me say that this is strictly an opinion, and not based on any facts. Just perception.

The heart of the argument is that there are indeed some players who have issues with some of the elements you've mentioned, but there are some who do not. There is hardly universal agreement. Personally I've never experienced any problems with grapples or level drains. And even though I did see the problem associated with the 15 minute work day, I made some changes to how I GM'ed, my players made some adjustments ... and it really hasn't been a problem for us.

Now I would never think of saying that these aren't concerns for some players, nor would I say that since I'm not having any trouble with them ... obviously those that are, aren't playing the game "right". That would be ludicrous and arrogant.

I believe that those players who don't have the problem with grapples or Vancian magic (managing resources) shouldn't have to sit there and read an article from WotC on how those rules ruined D&D for them in the past, or that parts of the previous edition made them gag.

Let the benefits of the new rules speak for themselves. If WotC is making a change to the rules in response to a concern from players, its certainly OK to admit it. But lets not tear down another players enjoyment of the game in order to justify that rule change.

No more tangents from me. I promise.

 

[Kzach]

They weren't pleased with it's treatment in 2e either, when WotC tried to revive it with a few sourcebooks. The fact that sales led WotC to cease printing those books and the fact that the only Greyhawk-specific book released in 3e's tenure (the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer) points more to it's unpopularity than anything else.

I don't mean offense but you're quoting something as fact which simply is not. Sales of the LGG were quite good, and I'll quote Erik Mona on the subject:

Howdy, folks. I obviously have a lot of strong thoughts on the matter, but I'm on deadline and don't have much time to post. I will say this, however:

>>>
Lots of sales right? Nope. To date, despite being one of the first books out of the gate for WotC sales have not warrented a second printing.
>>>

I'm not sure that's an entirely fair assessment. While I can't divulge sales figures (and don't have them handy even if I could), the LGG sold in the multiple tens of thousands of copies (not too bad with absolutely no advertising or internal support, but there you have it). I have strong reason to believe that a new GH hardcover would sell well enough to justify doing it, but with a new campaign setting on the way and Forgotten Realms going full throttle, I just don't think it's in the cards any time soon.

As it was explained to me, the LGG isn't in print not because it was a poor seller, but because most of the audience for that product already has the book, so after a while sales tapered off to the point that a reprint wouldn't bring in the steady revenue needed to cover a second printing of multiple tens of thousands of copies. That money would be better spent on printing a few thousand more of the latest, greatest hardcover, from a business perspective.

These days, WotC needs a campaign setting that can bring in millions of dollars in novels, miniatures, and game product sales. They've got one of those with FR, and are building another one with Eberron. They don't seem to have the capacity or interest in doing it for Greyhawk.

A compilation of LGJ articles, on the other hand, is certainly an interesting suggestion, and one I'm following with some degree of enthusiasm.

--Erik

"The meaning of "Core": will include expansions and D&D Insider materials, not just the first three books, when referred to by WotC."

That doesn't mean required. It has been stated multiple times in multiple mediums that any material other than the PHB/MM/DMG are simply not required to play the game. They are considered 'Core' in the same way that rules presented in splatbooks in 3.x were considered core. But none of those books are required.

 

[Elf Witch]

The reasons I am not switching are as follows.

1 I like 3.0/3.5 a lot. And I was turned off by the 3.5 sucks that is why we are fixing it. I don't see anything that needs a major overhaul so why fix it if it is not broke.

2 I hate what they did with the Realms.

3 I have a lot of money invested in a system that I like and since I am on a tight budget why spend money on something new that will not work with my other books.

4 A lot of the changes don't appeal to me.

5 I have not even begun to try all the things in my 3.5 books that I want to.

 

[Kastil]

I'm not switching because I spent enough money on 3e stuff and don't feel like throwing my money away on a new batch of stuff. Besides, I got so disgusted in hearing about the new edition, I've begun to play more heavily in a 1e forum I belong to. It's not that I'm disgusted by the changes so much, it's the fact that I feel a spent a good bit of money on the last Edition (including two sets of PHB and DMG) that I've decided to spend my money on other things..... like the food in the house for a still growing 13 year old boy.

Oh and I'll throw my hat into the FR change hater club too.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

like the food in the house for a still growing 13 year old boy.

Ouch you're definitely going to need that thar money.

Oh and I'll throw my hat into the FR change hater club too.

Yes, join us. We shall all hate the false idol together