Why won't you switch?

Dropping a quick moderator's note - the discussion of ease of conversion from edition to edition is perfectly fine discussion, but one best served by its own thread, as it really only tangentially touches on the original post topic.

So if you want to continue that topic, I encourage you to open a new thread to discuss it there!
 

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Devyn said:
Now I would never think of saying that these aren't concerns for some players, nor would I say that since I'm not having any trouble with them ... obviously those that are, aren't playing the game "right". That would be ludicrous and arrogant.

I believe that those players who don't have the problem with grapples or Vancian magic (managing resources) shouldn't have to sit there and read an article from WotC on how those rules ruined D&D for them in the past, or that parts of the previous edition made them gag.

Let the benefits of the new rules speak for themselves. If WotC is making a change to the rules in response to a concern from players, its certainly OK to admit it. But lets not tear down another players enjoyment of the game in order to justify that rule change.

No more tangents from me. I promise.

I don't believe that WOTC is retroactively saying that 3.5 sucked, or that those that elect to continue to play it are in some way deficient. I do believe, however, that they are simply pointing out areas of the game that they feel are weak or confusing. Those rules, such as grappling, Vancian magic, whatever, are considered weak to a majority of posters on this site. The fact that Devyn has had no problem with it speaks well of his skill with the game, but even he has admitted that he has had to make house-rules/adjustments to the game to bypass these weaknesses. WOTC is simply saying that they are attempting to correct those areas of weakness in the next edition of the game. For that, I am grateful and excited to see the new product.
 

Fenes said:
One thing that does put me off 4E is all the "it's cool" marketing. "Awesome" "cool" "greatest" and similar adjectives just rub me the wrong way.

Not to be contrary, but would you recommend they use such adjectives as: mediocre, somewhat okay, or the-best-we-could-do? They are in the business of making money, so of course they are going to market the game in such a way as to elicit excitement.
 

I don't believe that WOTC is retroactively saying that 3.5 sucked, or that those that elect to continue to play it are in some way deficient. I do believe, however, that they are simply pointing out areas of the game that they feel are weak or confusing.

I think this is what they are trying to do, but it has come off, more than once, as "The game you like now sucks, just wait until we show you how to REALLY have fun!"
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
I think this is what they are trying to do, but it has come off, more than once, as "The game you like now sucks, just wait until we show you how to REALLY have fun!"


I think you are, perhaps, being put off by their enthusiasm. As was pointed out in this thread, the designers are all relatively new to WOTC, they have nothing invested in the legacy aspect of the game. They have identified problem areas and are enthusiastically sharing their solutions. Those on this sight who are heavily entrenched in 3.5 have found insult in their enthusiasm and have taken it as an insult to the game they love. My advice: lighten up and let's wait for the game to be released so that we may fully evaluate it before we write it off.
 

Those on this sight who are heavily entrenched in 3.5 have found insult in their enthusiasm and have taken it as an insult to the game they love. My advice: lighten up and let's wait for the game to be released so that we may fully evaluate it before we write it off.

For me, personally, I don't have much invested in 3.5. I'm a slut for new games and new systems, and I'll play and kit-bash anything I can get my grubby little paws on.

But a lot of the reasons they've been giving for the switch seem to lay definately in a more subjective realm.

I mean, take the halfling issue just as an example. In the same game where they're espousing the idea that D&D is about playing a game, not simulating a consistent world, they're sprouting the lil' guys up in height and weight but leaving them Small-sized. The reason? Not playability, not speed, not elegance, but "believability." Because apparently it's unbelievable for child-sized people to have slightly less strength than an average Human.

That's the kind of thinking that leads to people seeing 'change for the sake of change' and 'a few designers' house rules' and 'implying that the other way sucked.'

Smaller halflings weren't inherently unbelievable, but a few designers (and possibly some vocal critics) thought it was, so they changed it despite the objections of those who were okay with it, and then said that it was so much better that way, despite not really adding much, if anything, to the game.

I, personally, don't have much invested in what size and weight halflings are. But their motive for the change is goofy enough that I don't believe it's justified. And once you've seen one or two things like that, it's much easier to see that in future installments, and when they start talking about how obviously superior the game is, it brings up an instant reaction of "Okay, you think so, but you're obviously not playing the game the same way I am, let ME judge it."

Wereas with 3e, most of the changes really sounded like the designers were playing the way most people played. 3e has some endemic problems, but pointing out those specific qualities that are being designed away from is much more constructive than just spouting superlatives.

In short:
"We're making Grapple rules simpler. It will now involve less d20 rolls because it will be more abstract." rather than "We're making grapple rules better."

"We're making touch AC more elegant. It's being rolled into Reflex saves." rather than "Touch AC was a horrible mess!"

"We're giving you a core setting to help newbie DM's. It's basically going to be an assemblage of random proper nouns and examples of how to design things." rather than "Greyhawk was legacy crap."

"We want making monsters to be easier, so we're going to call out exactly what characters are capable of taking on." rather than "Monsters following the same rules as PC's lead to a bloated, horrible, boring process when making new monsters."

It's totally possible to be positive and energetic about the new edition without complaining about how it sucked under 3e. If people agree with you, they already do, and if they don't, then telling them how much it sucked isn't going to win them over, but showing them exactly what you plan to do might.
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
I think this is what they are trying to do, but it has come off, more than once, as "The game you like now sucks, just wait until we show you how to REALLY have fun!"

Whether WotC deliberately planned to promote 4E by trashing parts of 3E, or they are just overly enthusiastic as Ebon Shar has proposed, the fact is that many of their customers have been irritated by the comments. To date, despite all the negative comments from customers on many boards, I don't believe WotC has acknowledged a thing.

Ebon Shar said:
My advice: lighten up and let's wait for the game to be released so that we may fully evaluate it before we write it off.

I agree with you, and have already signed up for a playtest of 4E when it comes out to make my "final" decision.

But for many players, their enjoyment of D&D is determined by more than just a set of rules. Definitions of our personal "D&D" could very well include the gaming community, the relationship with the publisher, EN World, the RPGA, the mini's, artwork, maps, conventions, magazines, gaming online, Faerun, Grayhawk etc etc etc. When dramatic changes are made to any (or all) of these elements, I am not surprised that they are then included as reasons why someone is not planning to move to another edition.
 

Celebrim said:
When you start claiming to have 'fixed the math' and you are being really tight lipped about the specifics, little alarm bells go off in my head the way that they would if someone claimed to have invented a perpetual motion machine.


Quoited for Truth. I have the same feeling about the 15-minute adventuring day.


RC
 

I honestly don't think anyone's pursuing a "your edition suxx0rz" marketing strategy. They're simply highlighting the fact that they think they've provided some nifty solutions to problems that they saw.

:shrug: I didn't think it was any secret that the 3.5 rules had a few wonky aspects to them. The fact that they seemed to do a pretty good job of identifying what I thought were problems with the rules actually gave me some initial enthusiasm.

Subsequent preview material have indicated to me that not all the solutions are going to be to my taste, and simply identifying problems correctly while not necessarily fixing them to my satisfaction isn't going to cut it for me. I also think that in many ways the design direction was in the opposite direction I would have gone, so... yeah, my enthusiasm has waned considerably to almost nothing.

Feeling touchy or getting offended or personally insulted by the fact that the designers think they've made improvements to the game doesn't make any sense to me. If they didn't think that, how else could they justify trying to foist a new edition on the customers? Of course they think they've improved the game. It wouldn't make any sense if they didn't believe that.
 

Wow. Leave the board for a few hours, and peaceful thread where people were stating their opinions and reasons why they (most likely) won't switch has turned into a full-blown edition war thread, complete with an ignored moderator's reminder to take the side discussions to their own thread.

Couldn't the pro-4E crowd simply leave this thread alone? Did the anti-4E crowd pee all over the counterthread (no idea because I don't go there, as I have nothing to say there at all)? Could we let the whole discussion die down again please? Would be nice if this thread didn't get locked because of increasing antagonism two pages down the road. Thanks all. :)
 

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