Why would anyone become a lich?
- Thread starter DMH
- Start date
DMH, I hope you've learned there is no shortage of contrarians on this board. 
I look at the lich template and tend to agree that it's really not that sweet a deal in terms of benefits. It doesn't ramp up your personal power in any major way. You get better ability score boosts, attacks, and defenses out of being a vampire, which is a shame. I may be missing it, but I don't see where a wish spell is disallowed from extending one's natural lifespan.
There's certainly something to be said for having the phylactery where you can defend it, although I'd agree that a portable hole might be a little more secure than stapling it to your forehead. Most of the steps you've taken to hide the phylactery, such as the maze and the phylactery decoys, can be easily thwarted with spells like find the path, commune, true seeing, etc. Your theory about stashing it on a demiplane glosses over a lot of the vulnerabilities that would offer, as if 100% foolproof warding against teleportation and divination effects was a minor detail (if so, nobody would ever get any real use out of them in a dungeon), or creating the demiplane in the first place when you've admitted yourself that's not a core option for an arcane spellcaster.
Bottom line: if some group of do-gooders wants to get at your soul bady enough, they'll make the trek. And when that suddenly finds itself in hell without even getting in a lick. it'll probably feel like a horse's rear end that it wasn't there at the very end to protect its own existence.
I look at the lich template and tend to agree that it's really not that sweet a deal in terms of benefits. It doesn't ramp up your personal power in any major way. You get better ability score boosts, attacks, and defenses out of being a vampire, which is a shame. I may be missing it, but I don't see where a wish spell is disallowed from extending one's natural lifespan.
wingsandsword said:
There's certainly something to be said for having the phylactery where you can defend it, although I'd agree that a portable hole might be a little more secure than stapling it to your forehead. Most of the steps you've taken to hide the phylactery, such as the maze and the phylactery decoys, can be easily thwarted with spells like find the path, commune, true seeing, etc. Your theory about stashing it on a demiplane glosses over a lot of the vulnerabilities that would offer, as if 100% foolproof warding against teleportation and divination effects was a minor detail (if so, nobody would ever get any real use out of them in a dungeon), or creating the demiplane in the first place when you've admitted yourself that's not a core option for an arcane spellcaster.
Bottom line: if some group of do-gooders wants to get at your soul bady enough, they'll make the trek. And when that suddenly finds itself in hell without even getting in a lick. it'll probably feel like a horse's rear end that it wasn't there at the very end to protect its own existence.
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green slime
First Post
Felon said:DMH, I hope you've learned there is no shortage of contrarians on this board.
I look at the lich template and tend to agree that it's really not that sweet a deal in terms of benefits. It doesn't ramp up your personal power in any major way. You get better ability score boosts, attacks, and defenses out of being a vampire, which is a shame. I may be missing it, but I don't see where a wish spell is disallowed from extending one's natural lifespan.
IMC we allow just that. Except that there is a cumulative chance of it back-firing and all the previous anti-aging benefit unravelling. (similar to the potions of longevity from 1e) So you can postpone death a decade or six, but sooner or later, you have to start thinking about resolving the issue some other way. You want to be a vampire's plaything, go ahead and take that path, if you like. Mummies?!? no thanks. Just no.
Calico_Jack73
First Post
I guess the primary reason would be Immortality on your own terms with no key weaknesses such as sunlight. For a great inside look into the motivations check out an old 2E copy of Van Rickten's Guide to the Lich. You can probably find a PDF copy on rpgnow.com. It also covers priestly liches and psionic liches (wizards aren't the only ones who can do it). Priestly liches can be a pain to destroy though since most of the time it is their diety who keeps the phylactery to better control their "pet". If you want to destroy the phylactery you'd better be prepared to deal with a god. ![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
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green slime said:
The "vampire's plaything" arguement is a little overplayed in this thread. It certainly doesn't seem to have a lot of thought put into it. Obviously, the aspiring vampire is not going to petition someone on the order of Strahd Von Zarovich to turn him.
Because an individual vampire isn't necessarily a particularly powerful entity (they can be as low as 5 HD), it's really not that hard to create a controlled situation where the vampire creator is essentially at the wizard's mercy--whether or not its aware of that--with pre-arrangments for its destruction as soon as its served its purpose. For instance, the wizard can awaken in 1d4 days to a bucket of ashes at its feet, courtesy of negotiations made a week earlier through a planar ally spell.
Even easier to arrange, however, is simply to ensure that you're so far out of your creator's league that it simply can't control you. As per the Monster Manual: "At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn". If it's 5 HD, and you're even as low as 11th level, you're in good shape.
Now as to addressing some of the more obvious (and snarky) rebuttals I can likely expect: while wizards don't have their own copies of the Monster Manual to look this up in, they certainly are capable of doing considerable research on the subject of vampirism. And while vampires don't have their hit die stamped on their forehand, it is nonetheless easy enough to go hunting low-rent mausoleums for two-bit vamps, perform a few tests and gauge its strengths (in fact, as long as the wizard doesn't destroy the subject's coffin, he can obliterate the poor creature to his heart's content, jotting down little notes on his pad until he's fully satisfied).
There is precedence for this. I recall reading in the FRCS supplement "Lords of Darkness" that one of the archmage Manshoon's clones had been drained by a vampire name of Orlak, and "his first act upon rising was to hunt down and destroy its creator". Now, aside from the fact that the rules just don't seem to apply to FR characters, I suspect that this was accomplished by the archmage being of too many HD to be bossed around.
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green slime
First Post
Vampires also require blood. Drinking blood from humans tends to be...impopular. Then you end up with all these messy holier-than-thou paladins, clerics and undead hunter types chasing you down.
Liches on the other hand, can just sit in a mausoleum and study to their heart's content. Liches get into trouble because of their power schemes. Vampires get noticed because of their dietry requirements. Must be fun being some kind of diabetic that gets hunted because you obtain what you need to survive.
And while casting no shadow, having no reflection, and avoiding sunlight it isn't easy to socialise, either.
Liches, on the other hand, only have to worry about the smell of the decay for the first few years, after which they can enjoy an active social calendar.
Liches on the other hand, can just sit in a mausoleum and study to their heart's content. Liches get into trouble because of their power schemes. Vampires get noticed because of their dietry requirements. Must be fun being some kind of diabetic that gets hunted because you obtain what you need to survive.
And while casting no shadow, having no reflection, and avoiding sunlight it isn't easy to socialise, either.
Liches, on the other hand, only have to worry about the smell of the decay for the first few years, after which they can enjoy an active social calendar.
green slime said:
Feh. This is not a compelling counter-arguement. Blood's not hard to come by, nor are hapless souls whom nobody would miss. And you don't have to be obvious about getting it. Use teleport to make sure your victims are miles apart. Heck, I don't think it even has to be human blood, does it? Raise a few pot-bellied pigs or something. Really, this is a non-issue.
Slimey, we really need to get a grasp on the wherewithal that a high-level wizard possesses. You're posing fairly trivial problems as utterly debilitating. Illusions and abjuration spells take care of those problems, (assuming the wizard really even gives a damn about socializing). I believe the FRCS sourcebook has 2nd-level spell that acts as an uber-sunblock.
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green slime
First Post
I guess I just have difficulty seeing why someone would to choose something which only grants limited control over self (blood-lust, sun aversion lug coffin with dirt around) over almost unlimited freedom: so I need a trinket to hold my soul? And the bad smell will pass?
green slime
First Post
Pretty fancy illusion that creates a reflection in mirrors and shadows from all the right angles. Not a low level spell that.
green slime
First Post
Felon said:
No. Not "utterly debilitating". You are reading more into my statements than is present. But irritating over an eternity. Especially considering that the character in question is given a choice.
Personally I find Liches in DnD to be much harder to destroy than vampires. YMMV.
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