D&D 4E Will 4E be backwards compatible?

[RFisher]

The current edition is badly flawed in required prep time, load on the DM, excessive rules, the system is unfriendly to new players, and the books are so poorly written and uninteresting to read they can cure insomnia.

But in 8 years, someone is going to say that 4e is badly flawed. Not because it introduced new problems, but because--like 3e--it made different trade-offs & a certain percentage of the audience is going to realize that they didn't like the trade-offs 4e choose. Because no edition will ever be perfect. There are always trade-offs that will have to be made.

As time goes by, innovations become harder & harder to find. So, the amount of differences between editions becomes less about innovations & more about different trade-offs.

To me, the new editions in perpetuity doesn't bother me. It bothers me more that older editions are considered obsolete instead of different. It bothers me when older editions become harder & harder for someone to get their hands on. (Luckily that really isn't much of a problem for D&D today. Especially since the oD&D PDFs became available.)

I mean, it's sufficiently different that they won't even try to make conversion guidelines?

Official conversion guidelines are madness. Official guidelines are no better than anything any gamer can make up himself. When there are official guidelines, too many people expect them to be perfect & then are very disappointed (if not disgruntled) when they realize they aren't. (Even if the guidelines themselves try to make it clear that they aren't perfect.) There's a much better chance that a conversion someone has worked out for themselves is going to well for them than anything official will.

The one good thing about the 3e conversion guidelines was that they gave those of us who recognized that they were going to be far from perfect a jump-start. But that's nothing we can't live without.

Besides, converting PCs to new systems seldom turns out well. I know people have done it with great success, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Vigilance]

So there'll never be a line drawn somewhere? When 4E slows down, 5E comes, when 5E slows down, 6E comes.

I think WotC is just not running the game properly at all. If you have to make a whole new edition change every 7-8 years, with a possible revision in between, then there's something wrong with the way the company is promoting the game and keeing it fresh. It's definitely not because there's something wrong with the current edition of the game.

A new edition, I believe, shouldn't have to come for at least 20 years.

Nice. What's it like on the planet where you live?

1st edition was released in 79, 2e in 89, 3e in 2000, and 4e in 2008.

See a pattern? 8-11 years between editions every single time.

Nothing new or totally shocking about this edition.

It's about that time.

 

[amethal]

So formulaic conversion? I can't see a way to make that work. But a faithful reinterpetation? I know that works because it worked at my table. You just have to be willing to squint a little.

--David Noonan, game designer, Wizards of the Coast.

Hi Dave, welcome to EnWorld.

A faithful reinterpretation is all we could want or need.

I don't imagine my 14th level binder can be "re-interpreted" under 4th edition, at least for the moment. However, I'm hoping vestiges can carry on doing pretty much what they did before.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Backward compatible? God I hope not. There is nothing, NOTHING more sure to poison and kill the entire purpose of creating a new edition than worrying about Luddites who can't let go of old editions.

When you draw that Sword of New Edition Creation the Sheath of Compatibility must be thrown away.

 

[Hjorimir]

Yeah, I'd be disappointed if there was an easy conversion between 3.x and 4e. That would say to me that there are not enough differences between the two editions to justify the change. I'm really looking for change - and the slaying of many sacred cows - and I get the feeling that WotC is not going to disappoint me on that.

 

[Agamon]

Backward compatible? God I hope not. There is nothing, NOTHING more sure to poison and kill the entire purpose of creating a new edition than worrying about Luddites who can't let go of old editions.

When you draw that Sword of New Edition Creation the Sheath of Compatibility must be thrown away.

Unlike every other edition of D&D? Even 3E had a 2E conversion document. You're saying a completely new game should be created? There are already different games out there...

 

[TarionzCousin]

Deal breaker for me: If I can't roll up a good Gish in 4e. The recently released Swiftblade is so much fun for me I'm going to cry if I can't find a DM that won't let me play one in 4e.

Where's the Swiftblade found? I could use a good gish.

Originally Posted by WotC_Dave So formulaic conversion? I can't see a way to make that work. But a faithful reinterpetation? I know that works because it worked at my table. You just have to be willing to squint a little. --David Noonan, game designer, Wizards of the Coast.

As I get older, I squint more often.

Thanks for participating, Dave. We appreciate it!

 

[Treebore]

You know, for those who have many editions of D&D, and are bothered by them being obsolete/practically useless, you can finally consider doing what I did.

Switch to Castles and Crusades. The one rules set that I have found is the "Ring with which to bind them all".

Looks like it will allow me to use what I like in 4E as well. 4E is still based on the D20 mechanic, so it should be just as easy for me to use as 3E. Maybe even easier with the way they are redoing the skills system.

Sounds like with the way they are redoing feats may make it easier to utilize as well. Simplifying monster stat blocks is also another good indicator.

So, if nothing else, when the 100's (1,000's?) of books I have bought for the previous editions of D&D fail to give me new ways to take my game, C&C has insured I will be able to turn to 4E for fresh ideas. With ease.


I am also glad that many of you are rich enough to accept WOTC's capitalist needs to make the money people have spent on 3E go in the trash/burn pile/ or eBay.

Of course people who don't like that money to go to waste can switch to using C&C as their rules base. While keeping 4E a relevant source for your future.


I also hope people aren't childish enough to "punish" WOTC by throwing away your books and giving up D&D forever. I presume people play it and are here on this forum because they find playing exceptionally fun. So why destroy that fun in a childish and vain effort to punish WOTC?

Whatever you do, definitely keep playing. Whether its 3E, 2E, 1E, C&C, or the old boxed sets.

No matter what you think about WOTC and 4th edition, the only one who can make you stop having fun playng D&D is you.

Do whatever yo have to to keep having fun. Whether thats to convert to 4E and waste the next 8 years of money you spend, or to stay with 3E ( I am sure some support from 3Rd party publishers will happen), or use Castles and Crusades to keep every set of edition books you own relevant, or go back to an older edition of D&D that you secretly still love.

Just dont let WOTC drive you from a hobby I assume you love.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

So formulaic conversion? I can't see a way to make that work. But a faithful reinterpetation? I know that works because it worked at my table. You just have to be willing to squint a little.

--David Noonan, game designer, Wizards of the Coast.

Has anyone been asking for an x = y sort of conversion document? What I want to know is whether I'll be able to get some mileage out of the crunch in (for example) Complete Mage if I expend a bit of effort. Can I stick in a Master Specialist or Ultimate Magus, or even a Warlock or Hexblade, without having to completely retrofit them--or alternatively, to discover that such a thing has been made impossible by rules changes?

I don't care about converting specific characters. I care about being able to still make use of 3rd edition crunch in a game that is ostensibly still based on the OGL.

 

[RFisher]

What I want to know is whether I'll be able to get some mileage out of the crunch in (for example) Complete Mage if I expend a bit of effort. Can I stick in a Master Specialist or Ultimate Magus, or even a Warlock or Hexblade, without having to completely retrofit them--or alternatively, to discover that such a thing has been made impossible by rules changes?

In my experience, whether I can do it to my satisfaction & how much work it was for me gives no indication whether you can do it to your satisfaction & how much work it will be for you.