D&D 5E (2014) Will D&D Next qualify as "Rules Lite"?

[Sword of Spirit]

Here is another reason why I think they will publish a more rules-lite "Basic" version of the game, in addition to publishing the more "Advanced" version with all the bells and whistles.

In one of Hasbro's recent quarterly conference calls and reports, they lay out 6 "gaming insights" based on market research that will drive their games. I think a few of these "insights" point to them wanting to make a rules-lite version of the game to compliment the full version:



Of these, #3 I think is the most important insight.

To me, that points to them having a stated goal to create a rules-lite version of the game, one which is easily consumable through a retail sale.

I also wouldn't be surprised if it had a more female-friendly cover, and a mobile app for character generation and/or dice rolling/random treasure/exploration generation. But I think those are much more speculative in nature.

Fortunately, addressing those points in marketing shouldn't hurt D&D any, for a change.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Nevermind. Ninja'd.

 

[Lanefan]

Another factor to consider on the light-heavy scale beyond the simple size of an end-product character sheet is the amount of complexity and-or work involved in generating said sheet, at various different character levels and assuming a bit of practice.

In 0-1e D+D character generation is usually pretty fast at all levels, with the exception being churning out spell lists for high-level arcane casters. This helps push the system toward rules-light.

In 2e it depends how many splats and expansions you're using. Core is as simple as 1e, relatively light. Full-splat options etc. can get pretty hairy, and heavy.

3e character generation at anything above 1st level is a pain, and adds to the heaviness of the system.

Never tried char-gen in 4e so I can't speak to it.

Yet another question to consider: if 5e isn't rules-light on release how easy will it be to make it rules-light, or at least lighter? Getting rid of the heavy bits in 1e (weapon speed, initiative-as-written, etc.) is pretty easy and still leaves a very playable game...I hope 5e is the same in this regard.

Lan-"rules ain't heavy, they're my brother"-efan

 

[dd.stevenson]

To me, that points to them having a stated goal to create a rules-lite version of the game, one which is easily consumable through a retail sale.

This sort of cuts against a lot of the conventional wisdom I've seen, which says that the basic product will target kids rather than adults. Interesting.

 

[pickin_grinnin]

This sort of cuts against a lot of the conventional wisdom I've seen, which says that the basic product will target kids rather than adults. Interesting.

If that's their goal, it's a mistake. Adults and teens are almost always going to be the primary consumers of tabletop roleplaying games, due to the nature of the games and the attention spans that come with age. They can market offshoot products to kids, but that isn't (or shouldn't) be their target audience for the basic product.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Adults and teens are almost always going to be the primary consumers of tabletop roleplaying games, due to the nature of the games and the attention spans that come with age.

Really? I suspect most of us started pre-teen at least, and kids do all kinds of de facto roleplaying on the playground and now computer rpgs these days. If they were aiming it at kindergartners, I'd say that was a bit low, but 10-12 is a very realistic age to market to, in my opinion.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Getting rid of the heavy bits in 1e (weapon speed, initiative-as-written, etc.) is pretty easy and still leaves a very playable game...

Oh yes, please. Every initiative system I remember had that two-staged mess based off of D&D, until 3e made the radical change of just putting you in order and going. Sure, when 3e first came out, it seemed bold and of some concern to simulationists, "but *realistically* faster characters should be able to anticipate their opponents and cut them off..." but I think most people got over that really darn fast and decided it was well worth that minor sacrifice to make a game actually run.

I know that not every system used that sort of initiative, and I probably even ran into some that didn't, but whenever I look back at something like White Wolf's WoD it always sticks out in a jarring manner. "Oh man, they were still using that type of initiative? Let's house rule it."

This is one example of game design "technology" actually evolving and improving rather than merely changing.

 

[GMMichael]

Oh yes, please. Every initiative system I remember had that two-staged mess based off of D&D, until 3e made the radical change of just putting you in order and going. . .
This is one example of game design "technology" actually evolving and improving rather than merely changing.

May I offer the next improvement in initiative technology: each character can act during every other character's turn. This is called the "Final Melee" system, and can be broken down into moments. Each character takes a series of moments and calls them his "turn." The order of these turns is called "initiative." During any moment, all characters have the right to use an action, but the character taking his turn must initiate each moment.

For example: It's your turn. No one can act until you first announce an action. When you do announce an action, let's say an attack against the short elf, then every character may choose to take an action during your action. The short elf has a good reason to act: he's being attacked! He'll want to defend. Since the short elf is defending against you, your buddy decides to attack the short elf as well. A bold move, because your buddy is now not able to defend against anyone who might want to attack him (which excludes you, the short elf, and your buddy, since they've all announced actions for this moment).

The benefit of acting during your turn, instead of other characters' turns, is that you can use your highest roll for all your actions during your turn, provided those actions are all of the same type, and you forfeit the right to change those actions.

For example: You REALLY want to hurt that short elf. You combine three attack actions, and get to use the highest roll of three for each attack against the elf. Since you're so dedicated, you must use all the attack actions, meaning you can't stop to defend yourself if someone else attacks you while doing this.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

So does everyone get to act on each other character's turn, or if you act on character A's turn, you therefore cannot act on character B's turn?

Also, within a turn, is there any specific order of action declarations? For instance, was there a reason the elf chose his action before your buddy, or could they be chosen in any order?

By the way, I like hearing about new initiative systems. My system isn't going to use anything traditional. Concepts like an initiative system are the sorts of assumptions I wanted to question in my system.

 

[GMMichael]

So does everyone get to act on each other character's turn, or if you act on character A's turn, you therefore cannot act on character B's turn?

Good question. Each character gets three actions with potential for bonus actions. So you can act whenever you want, but you only get to do it three times per round.

Also, within a turn, is there any specific order of action declarations? For instance, was there a reason the elf chose his action before your buddy, or could they be chosen in any order?

As I'm using the rules, characters can announce their responses to the current character anytime they want, and if it matters, those actions are resolved in initiative order. Characters with higher initiatives than the current character are considered to act simultaneously with the current character.

By the way, I like hearing about new initiative systems. My system isn't going to use anything traditional. Concepts like an initiative system are the sorts of assumptions I wanted to question in my system.

Steal this one all you want. The first playtest is here. In fact, if you want to build a more complex system off this one, I'm inviting you!