D&D 5E Will D&D Next qualify as "Rules Lite"?

[GMMichael]

Well, if it helps to frame my perspective, I'm considering my homebrew, Modos RPG, as rules-light. It has the following rules that might need looking-up:

- spell range, targets, and difficulty modifiers
- posture effects of being "mounted" or "flying"
- how (generally) crafting items works
- the difficulty table for the Healer skill

And these rules on a smallish character sheet:
- three types of character stats: abilities, skills, perks
- simple perks
- gear/inventory
- abilities relevant to each skill (but these are pretty intuitive)

And these rules that are easily memorized:
- the difficulty modifier table
- damage multipliers from the front and back rows
- actions needed for changing rows, changing initiative, or fleeing
- how to combine actions

And the rest is handled by the campaign concept, character concept, rule zero, and the "RP" in "RPG."

 

[Neonchameleon]

Well, if it helps to frame my perspective, I'm considering my homebrew, Modos RPG, as rules-light. It has the following rules that might need looking-up:

- spell range, targets, and difficulty modifiers
- posture effects of being "mounted" or "flying"
- how (generally) crafting items works
- the difficulty table for the Healer skill

And these rules on a smallish character sheet:
- three types of character stats: abilities, skills, perks
- simple perks
- gear/inventory
- abilities relevant to each skill (but these are pretty intuitive)

And these rules that are easily memorized:
- the difficulty modifier table
- damage multipliers from the front and back rows
- actions needed for changing rows, changing initiative, or fleeing
- how to combine actions

And the rest is handled by the campaign concept, character concept, rule zero, and the "RP" in "RPG."

Based on what I've read and my most recent definitions, Modos is in the rules medium category although at the lighter end of it. It could be re-written to fit the light category by doing things like standardising the perks in the style of Fate Core stunts, killing most of the equipment list, and above all not using D&D like spell descriptions but something more freeform.

 

[Argyle King]

I agree with the second - eg in my most recent session the mounted combat rules came into play - but not the first. I think it's pretty heavy in play. (For the sake of clarity - I'm an ex-Rolemaster GM. I'm fine with heavy.)

I have no problem with heavy either. I play a lot of GURPS 4E, and I tend to use some of the more in depth optional rules. That's actually part of why I mentioned in a recent thread elsewhere that I do not believe rules weight and complexity are necessarily linked. Despite having an arguably heavier approach to some aspects of a rpg, GURPS is often (for me personally) much smoother in actual play than some editions of D&D. For example, I have been familiar with D&D 3E for nearly 14 years, but would still feel uncomfortable DMing it; in contrast, I only picked up GURPS 4E 4-5 years ago, and I feel confident running a lot of things on the fly.

Hmmm, I guess we have to disagree. Rules lite doesn't necessarily mean that there are no rules for the new player to learn (not that you said that in anyway) but given that the powers already state the requirements necessary for the power to work that is just a slip up on the player's side. Unless of course I'm misreading your example.

If you had to list gaming systems in a progressive line from rules lite to rules heavy, I'm of the opinion that 4e is definitely on the side of rules lite. I base a game on how much the DM has to learn, fair enough I have D&D experience under my belt, but I believe that should not be factor given the vagueness of the OP query. and based on that, I felt there was very little as DM I had to learn for 4e.

The explanation of the rule wasn't the problem. It simply wasn't very intuitive to him and his way of thinking that the same tactic suddenly became impossible due to picking up a different weapon. It was also confusing to explain D&D HP and how someone didn't die after being stabbed so many times.

 

[GMMichael]

Based on what I've read and my most recent definitions, Modos is in the rules medium category although at the lighter end of it. It could be re-written to fit the light category by doing things like standardising the perks in the style of Fate Core stunts, killing most of the equipment list, and above all not using D&D like spell descriptions but something more freeform.

I checked out the Fate Core stunts, and I liked the categories for stunts: use one skill in place of another, add a special use for a skill, and create a rules exception. That's quality guidance for homebrew design that I'd like to implement into future versions of Modos RPG.

However, I'd hardly call that a standardization, especially with the "create rules exception" portion. Further, ringing in at over 300 pages, I'm not sure I'd call Fate Core "light" either.

Yes, the infamous D&D spell lists lean toward rules-heavy, simply because each spell is, itself, a rules subset. However, when I started toying with freeform spell creation, I found that by eliminating rules subsets (as spells), you have to create a monstrosity of a primary ruleset: how to design a spell.

So in the name of defining rules-weight, let me toss out my idea of a "simple" spell system:

1) Declare what you want your spell to do.
2) Roll 1d4 to determine your current-spell-effectiveness. (A 1 result means the spell currently takes effect.)
3) Negotiate with the GM and all other players on whether your described spell is at an appropriate power level for your character. This may involve bribing with Fate points.

Now while that's very short on rules, or rules-light, it's also not fun to play at all, since you'll either have a sourpuss player who's afraid his character will get shortchanged on equality of power, or you'll have a GM who can't effectively tell a story since his spellcasting PCs can do just about anything.

Commence dismantling of my false dichotomy.

 

[keterys]

Essentially, in order for a D&D-like game to count as light, you need to move the scale on so many other RPGs that it doesn't make sense to me.

If you restrict your coverage to just D&D-like games it might work. I'm still not sure, though, because I'd want to be able to point to simpler games like True20, Mutants and Masterminds, Star Wars some of the old/basic D&Ds as lighter than 4E and various heartbreakers.

Nevermind if we try to compare to Changeling or Mage, Ironclaw, Dragonlance Saga, Cortex, or Ork!.

Needing charts to determine success, having hundreds of pre made spells (which may or may not follow any standard of logic or formula), a continual string of immunities, counter immunities, different rules interactions, all veer D&D steadily out of the light category. Think of what you'd expect from a standard euro game (ie, not an Avalon Hill war-game).

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I wouldn't define it so much by character sheet information. Rather, I'd define it based on how much crunch the game has, how much mental overhead/learning curve is needed, how many systems the game has, and the level of additional complexity the game supports. (A truly rules light game would resist attempts to make it complex by having a core system that would make such complications silly or impossible.)

For instance, my own system has:
-Attributes and skills
-Universal task resolution system with only a couple intended variants
-Simple scaling rules (similar to d6)
-Narrative system for fate control
-Essentially no charts or tables, yet intuitive rules for everything that would go on them
-Everything can be memorized fairly easily except for setting specific complications (like the powers of a vampire, and even then you could memorize it as easy as a few 3e D&D spells)
-Legal characters can be made up on the fly in an intuitive manner, and work as intended without need for later "correction" or revision when written down
-If you use a persistent character you can probably memorize his stats, but if not you could record it on a note card

I wouldn't call it rules-light. I'd place it on the border of light and medium, because I haven't been able to refine the task resolution system enough to get rid of the "virtual derived values," because the integrated narrative system adds an additional layer to the experience, and because I haven't refined the powers sufficiently that I can record them with scarcely more space than a skill. On contrary side, it does well on the "resists added complexity" factor.

When I get it refined as much as possible, I still would only put it at rules-medium, bordering on rules-light, because the combination of the narrative and task resolution system means that, as easy, intuitive, and memorizable as the rules are, there are still a reasonable number of them.

I judge based on having at least read through a lot of games. A rules light system would be something like the Dragonlance 5e system, or FUDGE (before you start adding details (shame on supporting complexity!)--and even then I'd put it at the higher end of light).

Savage World and FATE (with the exception of Accelerated, which I'd put at the border) are definitely not light in my estimation, but they are both really high quality games.

Perhaps my scale for light is closer to what some people would call ultra-light, but I think when discussing in terms of light, moderate, or heavy, we need to make sure light and heavy are clearly distinct from moderate.

There hasn't been a D&D made that wasn't rules-moderate. Late 3e/Pathfinder was on the high end, but even BECMI was decidely not light (IMO).

 

[keterys]

I wouldn't call it rules-light.

I think you can safely call it rules light if I'm reading you right. There are far weightier sounding systems already being lumped into that spot, and I think anything _seriously_ less complex can slide into that ultralight category just fine.

I judge based on having at least read through a lot of games. A rules light system would be something like the Dragonlance 5e system, or FUDGE (before you start adding details (shame on supporting complexity!)--and even then I'd put it at the higher end of light).

I'd agree on Dragonlance being a fair example of something light-ish, but do remember that all casters needed to refer to a chart in order to cast spells, for perspective.

And yes, FATE goes quite a bit further past FUDGE offering options that can make it more complex. Though I'm not sure the system itself gets much more complex. Much like when we look at D&D we don't need to consider every spell made for the game in that complexity level (though you want to factor in some).

Perhaps my scale for light is closer to what some people would call ultra-light, but I think when discussing in terms of light, moderate, or heavy, we need to make sure light and heavy are clearly distinct from moderate.

That's fair, as long as we end up with a bunch of games in each category.

There hasn't been a D&D made that wasn't rules-moderate. Late 3e/Pathfinder was on the high end, but even BECMI was decidely not light (IMO).

I definitely agree with you on D&D. I'd actually probably put 3e/PF into the low-end of "heavy". There are more complex systems (HERO, for example), but there's only so much room for growth there on things that people actually play.

 

[ThirdWizard]

The weight of a rules system should take in more factors than just "do you have to look up tables!"

You have to take into consideration what goes into reading, understanding, and memorizing the rules. For example, in D&D 3e/4e there's an entire nomenclature built around miniature movement. You have to know about actions. Move, Minor, Swift, Standard, Extra, etc. You have to know what a push, pull, and slide are and what the differences between them. You have to know what a 5' Step/shift are. You have to know the various conditions and what they mean. You need to know what type bonuses are and when they stack. And so on and so forth. For Fate Core, you have to know about boosts, zones, compels, declarations, contests vs. conflicts, invoking, refresh, etc.

Then there is how complex something is in play. Even Fate Core gets complex here with a slew of aspects being created, invoked, disappearing, and reappearing as the game is played out. Have you used your free invoke yet? Is that boost used up? Is that aspect still in play or did we negate that? It isn't overly complex, but it is something to keep track of and that increases, in my opinion, the weight of the game. No, I'm not having to look anything up in the books, but I'm having to keep records on minutiae in order to properly run the game. Contrast that with something like Dread where there is only one mechanic: pull from the tower and succeed or die. The Window, in contrast, might play out an entire combat in a single roll. BAM! You're done. Move on to other stuff.

Lastly, there's prep time. How much time am I spending to get ready for the game. A half page of hastily scribbled notes gets me a session of Dungeon World. Contrast that with my epic Planescape 3e campaign in which I'd spend hours carefully crafting antagonists and had a binder of absolutely amazing adventures. One isn't better than the other, but there's definitely a difference in weight here.

And, there are games in between and even further out from each end.

So for DDN, I'd say the game is probably going to be on the heavy side, from what I've read in the playtests. Even the basic rules look like they're going to cover a wide array of rules. There may not be miniature combat in the base, but there still seems to be a lot of stuff in there. You've got to read up on your racial rules, your class rules, combat rules, what's a feat, what's alignment, what's a proficiency, attack rolls, advantage/disadvantage, ability score vs. ability modifier, damage types, spell rules, etc. These are all things that are taken for granted by most current D&D players, but these are rules that can be considered significant compared to what I would classify as rules-medium games (like FATE Core).

Gameplay-wise, I have to admit its been a few play packets since I actually played a game. Maybe the 2nd released playtest, actually... I think complexity has gone up since then, but I can't really speak from experience. From playing, I didn't think gameplay complexity was very high. I didn't have much to track, and I didn't have a lot of tactical or strategic decisions to make. I might have classified this as light.

Prep I can't speak for, as I didn't run the game. So, I can't speak from experience on this matter.

Overall, I'd say DDN is just on the rules-heavy side.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

[MENTION=12037]ThirdWizard[/MENTION]

We're definitely coming from the same perspective on rules-light, and I think your explanation fits my reasoning. I wouldn't let something go into rules-heavy as easily, but I recognize my standards for heavy are really high.

 

[Mistwell]

Here is another reason why I think they will publish a more rules-lite "Basic" version of the game, in addition to publishing the more "Advanced" version with all the bells and whistles.

In one of Hasbro's recent quarterly conference calls and reports, they lay out 6 "gaming insights" based on market research that will drive their games. I think a few of these "insights" point to them wanting to make a rules-lite version of the game to compliment the full version:

#1: Gaming continues to become more consumable.

#2: Girls like to game too. According to Hasbro 51 percent of digital gamers are girls but under 10 percent of the game aisle is targeted to girls.

#3: Adults prefer “friction-free” games. Hasbro’s research has found that adults think games take too long to learn, too much time to set up, and too long to play.

#4: The retail experience is important.

#5: Personalization engages.

#6: Mobile integration is an important feature in the current market.

Of these, #3 I think is the most important insight.

To me, that points to them having a stated goal to create a rules-lite version of the game, one which is easily consumable through a retail sale.

I also wouldn't be surprised if it had a more female-friendly cover, and a mobile app for character generation and/or dice rolling/random treasure/exploration generation. But I think those are much more speculative in nature.