Will DMs Need to Plan the PC Strategy?

[Charwoman Gene]

I said take 5-6th level characters in 3E and 4E, look at the utility spells available to them, and compare them.

Dude, utility Spells have been nerfed, those spells are weaker and available at higher levels.

I kind hate (in a board argument way) Derren, but I give him his few correct analyses.

Utility spells have been nerf to allow DM's the ability to create better plots. Taticians HATE this because they like to be able Kobayashi Maru everything. Using the rules to manipulate the world in versimilitude breaking ways is the end goal of their immersion.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Let me end this asking if a wall is hard to climb by looking at the rules.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/climb.htm

By looking at the rules, one can estimate that the DC for climbing said fortess wall would be about 20 or 25. A PC's climb modifier could be anything from -1 to 15+. Unless that PC spent a good deal of skill points on climb, they are going to have to roll pretty high, like say above 15. Since the wall is part of a fortess full of bad guys, I don't think you can take 10 or 20 on it. Therefore, I would wager it would be more likely to be hard.

 

[Derren]

Using the rules to manipulate the world in versimilitude breaking ways is the end goal of their immersion.

How does using the abilities existing in the game world to achieve a goal break versimilitude?

 

[hong]

Ban all spells which can destroy are poorly thought out plot (a plot which does not take the D&D specific abilities into account)

A plot which does not take non-existent abilities into account is not, by definition, a poorly thought-out plot.

(and its what 4E is apparently doing).

It is?

 

[Praeden]

Dude, utility Spells have been nerfed, those spells are weaker and available at higher levels.

I kind hate (in a board argument way) Derren, but I give him his few correct analyses.

Yeah, I know. But Derren asked me for a PHB reference regarding rituals. I was simply making a point - namely that he couldn't actually back up his points using the PHB either.

Derren uses these kinds of arguments regularly, and makes a point of trolling these boards, so I feel no obligation to treat him in a reasonable manner. If you want to give him credit for occasionally making an accurate statement (and let's not forget, his original statement was that all spells that didn't deal damage had been banned in 4E) then knock yourself out.

 

[hong]

Let me end this asking if a wall is hard to climb by looking at the rules.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/climb.htm

By looking at the rules, one can estimate that the DC for climbing said fortess wall would be about 20 or 25. A PC's climb modifier could be anything from -1 to 15+. Unless that PC spent a good deal of skill points on climb, they are going to have to roll pretty high, like say above 15. Since the wall is part of a fortess full of bad guys, I don't think you can take 10 or 20 on it. Therefore, I would wager it would be more likely to be hard.

Nobody said the PCs were 1st level....

 

[Derren]

(and let's not forget, his original statement was that all spells that didn't deal damage had been banned in 4E)

Read the post again, ok?

 

[Charwoman Gene]

How does using the abilities existing in the game world to achieve a goal break versimilitude?

Because the application of abstract rules to simulate world phenomena is flawed by nature. The rules also try and fail to simulate economics and such, Then "tactical" players basically act like any thing rules legal is world-logical and break the SoDB of the DM and non-"extreme-tactical" players.

I'm not saying that this is not a "valid" playstyle. I'm saying that unless the rules are made high-simulationist and thus fairly dense, and everyone is thinking this way, it's destructive to other playstyles. This playstyle is much less compatible with 4e. Like rolling dice to determine the outcome of combat is to chess.

 

[Praeden]

Ban all spells which can destroy are poorly thought out plot (a plot which does not take the D&D specific abilities into account) and there are only single target direct damage spells left. Thats not very interesting (and its what 4E is apparently doing).

Okay

 

[Charwoman Gene]

If you want to give him credit for occasionally making an accurate statement

Well, you see I wouldn't want to turn into Mourn or Wormwood now would I?

Instead I've decided to be hong