Will DMs Need to Plan the PC Strategy?

[cwhs01]

To quote hong: Why?

I think it might be a level-dependent problem.

A flying invisble level 1 pc can ruin a lot of possible plots and stories, that could be interesting challenges for a new hero. At level 16, crossing a chasm isn't really that interesting a challenge anymore (storywise), so fly becomes available.

but deciding what kinds of challenges should exist at which level, and when they can be circumvented by spells (or powers) i guess is an artform, more than a science.

And again, i'll point out that i would find it strange for a game to exclude a number of good plot ideas, because of a few low level spells.

 

[FadedC]

Regarding the climbing of the wall, I think the point Derren misses in his usual zeal to bash the skill challenge system is that climbing a wall shouldn't be a skill challenge in the first place. Skill challenges primarily exist for cases in which the party is trying to do something in which they succeed and fail as a group, and in which it may not be clear to what extent a single success or failure would effect the situation. Chase scenes and group negotiations are great for that. But not climbing over a wall.

 

[Campbell]

When did Fly and Greater Invisibility become utility* spells ? My experience with those spells is almost entirely confined to their combat use. Their durations in 3.5 are too short to meaningfully use them outside of combat (especially Greater Invisibility which lasts for a paltry 2 minutes at 20th level) and they provide powerful defensive abilities.

*Note: Using utility in the general sense of the word, not 4e's Utility keyword which simply means 'Not an attack'.

 

[HeinorNY]

Speak with the dead? Fly? Invisibility? Detect Evil? pfff
I ruined more plots with Dimension Door.
Do you want to be the ultimate assassin? Get dimension door and attack in the middle of the night, when the victim is sleeping. Everybody needs to sleep.
Dimension Door in, CdG, Dimension Door out.

And now we have Eladrin's Fey Step... I worry a little about it, even if there are some limitations, like the necessity of Line of Sight, or something like that.
Shut your windows, cover the keyhole, barricade the fireplace, the Eladrin Assassins are coming.

 

[Vempyre]

3E invisibility

Invisibility
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2, Trickery 2

4E invisibility.

Greater Invisibility Wizard Utility 16
'With a wave of your hand, you or another creature nearby fades away, becoming invisible'
Daily * Arcane, Illusion


3E fly

Fly
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3, Travel 3

4E fly

Fly Wizard Utility 16
'You leap into the air and don't look back.'
Daily * Arcane

To tackle that part, other than the nerfed effects (duration, mostly, which is fine by me as said in my earlier thread) if we want to compare their spell levels we need to translate it to the new system. 3E has 9 lvl of spells while 4E has 30. To compare their levels to each other we need to at least multiply any 3E spell by 3.33.

So in 4E an old 3E spell could be if it's respective lvl of power wasn't modified would be for exemple :
lvl 2 --> lvl 6.66 (rounding to 7, let's say)
lvl 3 --> lvl 10

So yea not only their power is nerfed but you get them much later, relatively. And I still think it's a still good thing to do to the game.

 

[Vempyre]

And to go back to the OP's subject :

I think that the fact that all those "game-breaking" abilities are only available way later in the game and that their effect and/or duration is both simplified and nerfed, will help the DM make much better adventures without worrying to plan for evry possible abilites the players might have (which was way too much in 3E, and way too powerful most of the time).

 

[Harshax]

So... I'm just wondering how people think 4E will behave. From what we've seen of Utility powers, they're still pretty limited in effect. It seems like Rituals are going to play a part in this, but I haven't seen any designer comments or anything about this stuff. Ideas?

When I first read the subject of this thread, I giggled. When does a DM not attempt to plan PC reactions?

But to contribute to the thread, as it is a decent question for several reasons, I believe PCs will be more durable in the face of DM blunders, and DM's will be more capable of dealing with PC blunders.

First we have milestones. If a DM has overestimated a party's capabilities, he can always state that a milestone has been reached. Second, characters will never be deprived of the majority of their abilities (at wills).

TPK's will still be possible, I hope, since I do not coddle player stupidity, but I think it will be easier for players and DM's to deal with poor planning.

Just a gut feeling.

 

[Vempyre]

And to be back on track even more, I think the only variable to take account of in planning your encounters will be the use of daylys (or lack of use). Will your players all use their per day powers in the same battle? If yes and you haven't planned accordingly, your encounter will be easier for them to defeat.

It all comes to this :

• if the players expect to have no more hard fights for this day (or expect to have only this fight in their day) they will use all the daylys they have available.
• if they expect to have more fights or a tougher fight down the road they will use their dayly powers sparingly and only if truely needed.

I think it will be the only thing to really worry about when building your encounters.

 

[Harshax]

While its obvious that the types of resources a character can leverage in an encounter has changed, it's still business as usual for DMs. Let's hope the DMG lives up to its name and is a Dungeon Master's Guide.

 

[jaer]

See, I don't mind that fly takes actions to sustain - it's the "5 minutes, once per day", "40' speed", and "16th level" aspects that bother me. That's just a pitifully short effect for the level it's at.

I though Paragon tier included flying as something that people could be expected to use. Last time I heard, Paragon tier started at 11th level, so why are you only getting mediocre flight spells when you're already half-way through it?


It basically bothers me that things like flying over a swamp instead of walking through it and cracking open locks are things which are apparently equal to defeating Pit Fiends and ruling countries. What the heck good is it to level up and achieve new "tiers" of power, if it just means bigger numbers on your blasting spells? If you can't even bypass something like a small chasm, then you aren't an archmage, no matter what the level says.

Here I disagree with you a little. To me, being able to imbue a group of people with the ability to transverse a chasm or fly a few hours over a swamp is ritual level stuff. It shouldn't be something the wizard can pull out of his hat at a moment's notice in combat.

A quick burst of flight in battle for an ally to zoom up and attack the griffon rider? Cool. That work me. But a spell that allows hours of flight? That should take lots of prep-work and components and such.

I think this also helps to address the issued problem of why the world isn't more influenced by magic. Why isn't everything done magically if there is so much power flowing about? It seems the new magic system allows for quick, short-range, short-duration powers to be accessed instantly by a spell-caster. More long-range (teleport) and long-duration (perhaps over-land flight) and powerful (raise dead) spells will take time and concentration and intense focus to use. Because these labors are so intense, it is not generally worth it to "mass market" them and have magic take over your life and remove the physical labor.

Make short, difficult to sustain, but free effects the instantaneous powers, and the longer-duration, expensive magics the rituals. PCs can still fly from one city to the next, but it's not something the party wizard can toss out in the middle of a fight. And if it was expensive, time-consuming, and power-intensive (only usable once per day), then there would be no wondering why there isn't a 'airport' with a wizard casting fly spells on everyone who wants to travel from City A to City B without traveling through the swamp. There just aren't enough wizards who can do the ritual and it just costs to much to do to make it a viable option for most people.