Will Saves Modified by Charisma (Also a New Save: Perception)

[airwalkrr]

Suppose a character's Will save was modified by Charisma instead of Wisdom. I have considered this change in light of the fact that a) Charisma is often very neglected in importance and b) Charisma represents your force of personality which seems to represent your willpower more than being wise does. I can foresee the following major changes in game style:
-Bards, paladins, and sorcerers gain a little bit of power (not necessarily bad as these are all typically considered weak classes).
-Wisdom becomes the "dump" stat for most classes that do not have it as a requirement for spellcasting.

If we ignore the Will save issue, Wisdom is already more important than Charisma IMHO because it is tied closely to Spot and Listen, two of the most vital skills in the game. But to account for the fact that this rule probably makes Charisma more dominant, now suppose this rule were to accompany another rule that partially makes up for the new deficiency in Wisdom scores. A new saving throw, Perception, is introduced. Most classes that have good Will saves will also have good Perception saves. Perception is modified by Wisdom. All spells of the illusion school that allow Will saves now allow Perception saves instead. Additionally, any effect that is tied to seeing through falsehood or recognizing danger in a confusing situation is tied to Perception. Some enchantment spells, like Confusion, would also allow Perception saves instead of Will saves. Additionally, it is possible we could do away with the Sense Motive skill and make Bluff opposed by a Perception save, making it harder to Bluff higher level characters (they have heard it all before). It might be possible to do this with Intimidate too but since Fighters would probably not get good Perception saves it would be kind of silly that they are easier to intimidate. However, it makes perfect sense that it should be naturally more difficult to deceive a wizard or a cleric (learned classes typified by more experience in worldly ways) than a fighter. Additionally, rogues should receive a good Perception save since they should be difficult to deceive through trickery. This has the added benefit of giving a slight boost in power to rogues, another class many consider underpowered, especially in a trap-light campaign.

Thoughts?

 

[librarius_arcana]

Suppose a character's Will save was modified by Charisma instead of Wisdom. I have considered this change in light of the fact that a) Charisma is often very neglected in importance and b) Charisma represents your force of personality which seems to represent your willpower more than being wise does. I can foresee the following major changes in game style:
-Bards, paladins, and sorcerers gain a little bit of power (not necessarily bad as these are all typically considered weak classes).
-Wisdom becomes the "dump" stat for most classes that do not have it as a requirement for spellcasting.

If we ignore the Will save issue, Wisdom is already more important than Charisma IMHO because it is tied closely to Spot and Listen, two of the most vital skills in the game. But to account for the fact that this rule probably makes Charisma more dominant, now suppose this rule were to accompany another rule that partially makes up for the new deficiency in Wisdom scores. A new saving throw, Perception, is introduced. Most classes that have good Will saves will also have good Perception saves. Perception is modified by Wisdom. All spells of the illusion school that allow Will saves now allow Perception saves instead. Additionally, any effect that is tied to seeing through falsehood or recognizing danger in a confusing situation is tied to Perception. Some enchantment spells, like Confusion, would also allow Perception saves instead of Will saves. Additionally, it is possible we could do away with the Sense Motive skill and make Bluff opposed by a Perception save, making it harder to Bluff higher level characters (they have heard it all before). It might be possible to do this with Intimidate too but since Fighters would probably not get good Perception saves it would be kind of silly that they are easier to intimidate. However, it makes perfect sense that it should be naturally more difficult to deceive a wizard or a cleric (learned classes typified by more experience in worldly ways) than a fighter. Additionally, rogues should receive a good Perception save since they should be difficult to deceive through trickery. This has the added benefit of giving a slight boost in power to rogues, another class many consider underpowered, especially in a trap-light campaign.

Thoughts?

What? dude have you been reading my mind?

Thats The same idea I had about two weeks ago,

 

[Nifft]

Interesting. I kinda like it.

Here's how I'd break down the Perception saves:

Good Perception: Ranger, Monk, Bard, Barbarian, Illusionist & Abjurer (specialist Wizards); Shadowdancer, Arcane Trickster, Horizon Walker, Duelist, Assassin

Bad Perception: the rest


The Rogue's Slippery Mind would apply to Illusion spells as well as Enchantment.

Note that Paladins get a big boost out of this, since they typically have high Wisdom and Charisma, and they now get a free bonus to FOUR saves from high Charisma boosters, and a double boost to Will saves.

The Paladin in my campaign does NOT need more help with his Will saves. Not at all.

-- N

 

[Ciaran]

Good Perception: Illusionist & Abjurer (specialist Wizards)

That seems like a bad situation, balance-wise; there are enough cool illusion and abjuration spells to make those specializations worthwhile without throwing in an improved saving throw.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Suppose a character's Will save was modified by Charisma instead of Wisdom. I have considered this change in light of the fact that a) Charisma is often very neglected in importance and b) Charisma represents your force of personality which seems to represent your willpower more than being wise does. I can foresee the following major changes in game style:
-Bards, paladins, and sorcerers gain a little bit of power (not necessarily bad as these are all typically considered weak classes).
-Wisdom becomes the "dump" stat for most classes that do not have it as a requirement for spellcasting.
Thoughts?

Since when does charisma = willpower, in game or out?
How does making Wisdom the 'dump' stat remove the fact that a dump stat exists at all?
As a friend once said 'Charisma is the red-headed stepchild of ability scores'. It's sad but true; many have tried to fix it and failed and you are about to be one of them.
The fact that you mention bards, paladins and sorcerers as being weak shows how little you understand game theory; my advice to you is not to mess with rules until your grip gets a little firmer.

 

[airwalkrr]

Here's how I'd break down the Perception saves:

Good Perception: Ranger, Monk, Bard, Barbarian, Illusionist & Abjurer (specialist Wizards); Shadowdancer, Arcane Trickster, Horizon Walker, Duelist, Assassin

Bad Perception: the rest

That is quite different from how I would do it. What reasons do you have for these classes? Here is how I would break the classes down.

Good Perception: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Paladin, Rogue, Wizard, Arcane Trickster, Archmage, Assassin, Blackguard, Dragon Disciple, Heirophant, Loremaster, Mystic Theurge, Red Wizard, and Thaumaturgist
Poor Perception: Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, and Sorcerer, Arcane Archer, Duelist, Dwarven Defender, Eldritch Knight, Horizon Walker, and Shadowdancer

The idea is that classes typically representing either training in piercing deception or mastering deception are more inclined to see through it.

The Rogue's Slippery Mind would apply to Illusion spells as well as Enchantment.

I don't think this would be necessary, as most illusions do not attempt to control or halt your mind. Patterns might be an exception to this so we could say that illusions of the pattern subschool still grant Will saves.

[/quote]Note that Paladins get a big boost out of this, since they typically have high Wisdom and Charisma, and they now get a free bonus to FOUR saves from high Charisma boosters, and a double boost to Will saves.

The Paladin in my campaign does NOT need more help with his Will saves. Not at all.

-- N[/QUOTE]

I don't think paladins necessarily NEED help with their Will saves, but it makes enough to sense to me that a paladin should be one of the hardest character classes to enchant. Doubly adding Charisma to his Will save I can see as a potential problem, but I imagine in most cases it would not boost a paladin's save by more than 4 or 5 points by level 20, which, in the grand scheme of things is not that big of a deal. It breaks down if your characters are playing high LA races with large racial modifiers to Charisma, but that is another can of worms and something I usually avoid in my campaigns for that express reason.

 

[ChrisHaines]

Originally posted by Tequila Sunrise

Since when does charisma = willpower, in game or out?
How does making Wisdom the 'dump' stat remove the fact that a dump stat exists at all?
As a friend once said 'Charisma is the red-headed stepchild of ability scores'. It's sad but true; many have tried to fix it and failed and you are about to be one of them.
The fact that you mention bards, paladins and sorcerers as being weak shows how little you understand game theory; my advice to you is not to mess with rules until your grip gets a little firmer.

The Player's Handbook describes the Charisma ability score as a reflection of one's "force of personality". I believe that this can loosley be taken to mean one's force of will as well.

Originally posted by airwalkrr in another thread.

I post here in the House Rules forum quite a bit because I like discussing house rules and looking for ways to make the game better for me and my group. Lately, I have been hearing a lot of people reply to my suggestions with things like "tweaking the game messes up more stuff that you have to tweak so don't do it." These kind of replies do not help me. I post here because I KNOW that tweaks will impact other areas of the game and I want feedback to help me realize areas I haven't considered.

This is after all a forum to stretch the possibilites of the rules. If it means altering a fundamental of the game and in turn causing a cascade of change, then so be it. I tackled the Ability Scores first when I decided to revamp D&D 3.x. I found it beneficial to start with the basics. It caused several changes to the mechanics, but I am happy with the outcome I created. Of course, everyone's game mechanics are going to be different. When I game with a new GM one of my first questions is to find out what house rules they prefer to use. For me that is one of the benefits of gaming in the roleplaying fashion. It is dynamic and easily altered [on the fly even] to suit anyone's needs and desires.

I altered the Abilty Scores as follows:

STR - Applies to Grapple checks and Damage rolls. Also effects Encumbrance Load limits.

DEX - Applies to Attack rolls for Melee and Ranged Attacks as well as a Armor Class.

CON - Applies to Hit Dice and Fortitude Saves.

INT - Applies to Skill Point progression. I also have it apply to feats, a negative modifier taking away the same number of feats gained from character levels and a positive modifier allowing you to gain a progression of Skill Focus feats.

WIS - Applies to Reflex Saves.

CHA - Applies to Will Saves and Initiative rolls.

These changes caused an avalanche of alterations to my house rules. It was a lot of work and I would not expect everyone to do the same. It was fun and rewarding for me, and the players that I asked to experiment with it enjoyed the experience as well.

 

[Nyeshet]

I had a thought akin to this a few years ago, although the system on which I am working that makes use of this idea is yet from finished.

In any case, I separated the Will save into Will (Presense) and Perception (Wisdom), and I further separated the Fortitude save into Fortitude (Constitution) and Endurance (Strength). Both saves are a little weakened by this, as one cannot be exceptional at both unless one has placed equivalently high scores in two saves - not even taking into consideration choosing a class that has an equal progression in each. I use medium saves, so often a class that prior had a good Will save after had a good or medium Will and a medium or good Perception, dependent on the class.

I see Presense (renamed Charisma) as the force of personality, willpower, stubbornness even perhaps. It is the strength of will to persevere that is so strong it catches others up in its wake.

Many confuse Charisma as somehow related to appearance or beauty. Some state it is force of personality, but then state that force of willpower / stubbornness should be attributed to another mental stat (wisdom), something I've never understood. How can the force of the mind be attributed to the stat that deals with the ability to perceive and understand one's self and one's surroundings - in short, enlightenment?

These divisions in the saves also aid in making the abilities a little more even - each, save Intellect, has its own, and Intellect is in charge of bonus skill points - a major consideration as all abilities benefit from such (except, in my system, Constitution, as Concentration is replaced with the Will save).

Ravenloft has a Horror / Madness check that uses the Will save to resist. By your statements regarding Confusion it would seem that Perception is the relavent save. However, wouldn't the ability to more fully perceive the terrorizing reality make it harder to resist? In such a system [the Ravenloft Horror / Madness check system], I would perhaps create a new save: Sanity, that uses the higher of the two: Wisdom or Presense, as while Wisdom might grant insight, hope, etc that could potentially offer a way to resist - or, rather, find a way through - the madness, Presense might perhaps allow one to resist by sheer force of will. Or perhaps the initial save is Will, but subsiquent saves, if failure occurred at first, is Perception. One initially seeks to resist the horror / madness, but if they fail they must seek the path back to sanity through the maze of madness. An interesting idea. I'll have to think on it a bit more . . . .

In any case, I - needless to say - like your idea for separating Will into Will and Perception.

However, I do not see Wisdom as becoming a new dump stat. In battle and in defense, one uses what works. If Wisdom became a dump stat then suddenly illusions gain far more power. This is especially true if you fold the Sense Motive skill into it. Suddenly, if Wisdom is the dump stat, then all fighters are readily fooled even at high levels by a low to mid level Rogue using Bluff or a low to mid level caster using an illusion. So, no, it will not become a dump stat, if for no other reason than those of low Wisdom would be of less utility in combat except as thugs and grunts. Such would be of less worth for advancement in the ranks due to their poor ability to spot a bluff. Consider feints, for instance. That uses Bluff, and by this pattern a mid level rogue will almost always succeed in a feint against a high level fighter - gaining Sneak Attack damage should their strike hit, I note.

Rather, I see most fighter types seeking to have no negatives in any ability. Str is needed for damage and melee attacks and numerous useful combat feats (Power Attack, etc). Dex is needed for ranged attack and defence (unless one wishes to use full plate all the time, and even then a point or two might possible for AC). It is also needed for many combat feats, such as Combat Reflexes. Con is needed for survival in combat and resisting poisons, etc. Int may or may not be needed, but I note it is useful for Combat Expertise and some other useful combat feats - not to mention bolstering the Ftr's limited number of skill points. Wis is needed to resist feints, illusions, etc. Cha is needed for resisting compulsions, leadership, etc.

In short, the dump stat no longer truly exists for the fighter. Having an 8 in any stat is now a notable flaw that could limit the character in several ways.

As a final note, realize that not everyone agrees as to which classes are stronger or weaker. The Paladin's weakness is its need to be faithful to a single highly limiting alignment. It is not mechanically all that weak. The Bard barely qualifies as being mechanically weak. It is nealry on par with the Rogue, which is considered by many the most balanced class in the game.

The Sorcerer's strength depends entirely on the build. Some builds are devestating power houses. Others are inconsequential and even paltry in combat. Note that the Sorcerer is getting a 'round-about fix through the inclusion of sorcerer-like classes that focus on one or more of the schools of magic. We have the Beguiler (enchantment, illusion), the warmage (evocation), and the dread necromancer (necromancy). All thats really left is one that deals with (divination, abjuration: a Sage?), (conjuration: a Summoner?), and (transformation: ???). I figure we'll get one of them in the coming Complete Mage book, perhaps even two.

 

[mosaic]

I have to agree 100% with pegging Will saves to Charisma. I've been playing with the idea for some time as well. And without the Will save, Wisdom really is just left as a measure of perception. I was actually considering renaming it Perception and was going to call the new save 'Surprise.' That way, instead of doing all the Listen and Spot checks at the beginning of an encounter, you could just do a save vs. Surprise when someone was trying to sneak up on you.

I hadn't considered using the new save against illusions but it does make sense. In that case the save would have to be called Perception and the ability score would stay Wisdom. But even called Perception, the new save could still be used as a way to aviod surprises as well as seeing through illusions.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

CHA - Applies to Will Saves and Initiative rolls.
QUOTE]

Well it's nice to know that others are taking on the mammoth task of revamping 3.x too! I apologize for being infuriatingly condescending earlier; bad mood...you don't need a sob story to know how it goes. I did indeed read your rant thread about 'more complication than it's worth', so let me attempt to explain exactly why your ideas about charisma are not only needlessly complex but also illogical...from the perspective of my own experience of course.

In my experience, charismatic folks are adept at one thing: social interaction. Most charismatic people that I know (and I know a few quite well as they are close friends) have weak wills and poor reactive instincts. They are great at overcoming OTHERS' wills, but are themselves just as likely to succumb to another's 'force of personality'. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've always witnessed 'force of personality' as being a purely offensive trait; it can get others' to do what you want but not do anything to prevent the reverse. On a side note, I've always had a problem with the 3.x idea that charisma is somehow representative of spirit or soul (aka sorcerer, paladin); I've always felt that if any stat should represent this trait that it should be wisdom.

Arguing that certain Cha-reliant classes are weak is always something that gets under my skin. For example, there are so many players that love the ease of spontaneous casting but don't like the sorc's lack of versatility that they have become convinced, and been able to convince others, that the sorc is a 'weak' class. Sorcs are not weak, they're UNAPPEALING because they are not meant to be a commonly played class. This also goes for paladins and other non-basic-basic classes; just read the flavor text and you'll find that any class which possesses 'inborn talent' or 'the favor of destiny' is supposed to be a rare character choice.

P.S. I've also switched Strength for Dexterity in reference to AB; though I am starting to wonder if this will make the tank archetype history.
P.S.S. I've always thought that Concentration should be modded by Wisdom instead of Con...what say you?