Will Saves Modified by Charisma (Also a New Save: Perception)

[Tequila Sunrise]

I see Presense (renamed Charisma) as the force of personality, willpower, stubbornness even perhaps. It is the strength of will to persevere that is so strong it catches others up in its wake.

Many confuse Charisma as somehow related to appearance or beauty. Some state it is force of personality, but then state that force of willpower / stubbornness should be attributed to another mental stat (wisdom), something I've never understood. How can the force of the mind be attributed to the stat that deals with the ability to perceive and understand one's self and one's surroundings - in short, enlightenment?

You think charisma is stubborness? Really? My experience has been that charismatic people are the way they are because they are incessant people-pleasers. People like charismatic personalities because they do whatever it takes to please others; just think of politicians! Wisdom is indeed one's ability to understand (be one with) oneself and environment (enlightenment); I can't explain how this creates willpower, but I know it to be true by intuitition, instinct and experience. How anyone can think otherwise....well, whatever.

 

[ChrisHaines]

Tequila Sunrise,
I do agree with you that Concentration should be WIS based and changed it in my games. I also agree with you about rare character concepts. I feel the Paladin is an overpowered class in comparison to most of the other base classes, unless the GM and player work out the roleplaying structure explained in the classes description. This usually reults in more effort put in by the player and GM to play the character [making it more rewarding as well]. There are always those players that want to min/max the system primarily for combat. Let's face it, D&D is primarily combat focused. Social interaction rarely affects the outcome of combat [though creative players could design outcomes otherwise]. I think a lot of D&D players have come to find this to be evident in their games and told themselves the only reason to boost CHA is if they make a Sorcerer or equivalent CHA based class. I also feel there have been published changes to d20 to address this issue. The Action Point mechanic is the most evident one.

When I swithced the Melee Attack bonus from STR to DEX, I did have to give some more weight to STR to compensate. I redesigned the Max DEX mechanic for Armor and incorporated it more into Encumbrance loads. I also made Grappling more effective [I always thought it sucked the way it was written] and modified/added some grappling feats. Tanks in my games with low STR scores end up being more like ATVs.

 

[mosaic]

In my experience, charismatic folks are adept at one thing: social interaction. Most charismatic people that I know (and I know a few quite well as they are close friends) have weak wills and poor reactive instincts. They are great at overcoming OTHERS' wills, but are themselves just as likely to succumb to another's 'force of personality'.

Then does will power need to be seprated from Charisma as well, leaving as a purely social skill? The earlier discussion was about stripping will power from Wisdom and leaving it as perception. It would almost seem that instead of two abilities (Wisdom & Charisma), we need three - Wisdom/Perception, Charisma & Will Power. Hmmm.

 

[Piratecat]

...shows how little you understand game theory; my advice to you is not to mess with rules until your grip gets a little firmer.

Your friendly neighborhood admin here. I wanted to pop in with a quick hijack, because this thread is a good example of accidentally insulting a person when you're trying to criticize their ideas.

It's fine to disagree with someone. But when you read your post, put yourself in the other person's shoes. If you think, "Boy, the person I'm talking to is going to find this condescending or insulting," it's probably a good idea to rephrase your point. Doing so will help push the conversation forward, and will help prevent the thread from being sidetracked by annoyed retorts.

I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I already have, so please send me an email (clikc on my user name) if you want to discuss this further. Thanks.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Suppose a character's Will save was modified by Charisma instead of Wisdom.

This was one of my first house rules in 3.0 and I ran a campaign very successfully for 3 years with this setup (Cha modifies will saves instead of Wis), running from 1st to 14th level.

The 'worst case scenario' is paladins will saves, but even that wasn't a problem (I had two paladins during that time and it never caused any balance problems in my game).

It is a fine change and one that works nicely (although I personally wouldn't go to the bother of introducing a new type of save in addition to that).

Another interesting idea that has cropped up for de-dumpifying Cha is that in campaigns that use "action points", the Cha modifier is used as a modifier to the number of action points gained each level, reflecting the PC's panache and confidence. I've not tried this example but it bears looking at.

Cheers

 

[librarius_arcana]

Since when does charisma = willpower, in game or out?
How does making Wisdom the 'dump' stat remove the fact that a dump stat exists at all?
As a friend once said 'Charisma is the red-headed stepchild of ability scores'. It's sad but true; many have tried to fix it and failed and you are about to be one of them..

Dude thats crap

And you are not one of the people that would or ever fix this problem,

there should NOT be any kind of "dump stat" in a game,
that shows the game to be unbalanced, and supports bad character desgin, (constantly using this as a "dump" because it serves no real game related effect)

And besides all of the above, it simply makes more sense, wisdom does not relate to will power, but strength of character does,

 

[Sir Brennen]

Just want to throw in here I think this is a great idea, mainly because I've also thought of it before

Cha as Willpower makes perfect sense, and creating a Perception save makes the Wisdom stat seem more "wise".

What I would really love to see is the system getting rid of straight "attribute checks", simply because they don't scale like other saves. I'd rather see actual, progressive Saves for each attribute type, and then things like Trip or the Web spell could use a Strength save instead of an attribute check.

I mean, a 10th level rogue can use Reflex save to completely avoid a magical bolt of lightning, but only gets to use his Dex mod to not be tripped by a 1st level commoner?

I'd like to see Trip resolved with the same Ref save vs. the attacker's Ref or "Power" (Strength) save, with the DM's option of the attacker just Taking 10 to set the DC. This would eliminate a die roll, and is easily referenced by looking at the creature's stats.

My gosh, when you think in terms of Saves, Grappling might even become easier!

One problem I can see is some of the suggestions so far which want to blur the line between saves and skill checks or other things like initiative checks. The water starts becoming a bit muddied under those circumstances, I'm afraid. For example, even though Wisdom = Perception, I still think it should be the "quick" classes who have an advantage for Initiative. The extensive combat variant from the Waking Lands uses Dex or Wis Mod for Init, but in that case, I'd give Rogues, Monks and maybe Bards a class feature which adds to Init, maybe 1 + (class level/5).

As for the Divine Grace feature for Paladins, I'd probably replace that with something similar: a +1 to all saves, +1 per (class level/5). Both this and Init bonus for "quick" classes also give a little more incentive to stick with the class to 20th level (not a lot, but it's something.)

Of course, this all goes to demonstrate the "ripple" effect of making such changes to the system.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

When I swithced the Melee Attack bonus from STR to DEX, I did have to give some more weight to STR to compensate. I redesigned the Max DEX mechanic for Armor and incorporated it more into Encumbrance loads. I also made Grappling more effective [I always thought it sucked the way it was written] and modified/added some grappling feats. Tanks in my games with low STR scores end up being more like ATVs.

How did you redesign Max Dex and encumbrance? How do you do grappling? I don't think grappling is underpowered, but I do think it's too complicated.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Dude thats crap

And you are not one of the people that would or ever fix this problem,

I don't know what you're trying to say here, as your sentence structure is making my eyes cross.

there should NOT be any kind of "dump stat" in a game,
that shows the game to be unbalanced, and supports bad character desgin, (constantly using this as a "dump" because it serves no real game related effect)

I understand that we all have this notion that Charisma should be an important stat in this pretend world that we call d&d, because charisma is important in the the real world--it gets us friends, jobs, perks, power and so on. But d&d is a fantasy world in which we act out the adventures of a tiny group of people that make their living by slaying dragons and saving the world--not by climbing social ladders or ousting political opponents. It just follows that in this tiny group of make-believe people, not many of them are going to be concerned with social skills.

And besides all of the above, it simply makes more sense, wisdom does not relate to will power, but strength of character does,

You're right: strength of character = willpower. However, strength of character = wisdom. Let me put it this way, which has more character: a hermit who just spent 10 years on top of a mountain contemplating himself and the universe or a guy that spent the last 10 years 'sucking up' to everyone in the office that he works at in order to take over when the boss leaves? The hermit is accustomed to being deprived of many things: food, comfort, even social interaction. The office-guy is accustomed to being liked by others. Now let's insert a situation that requires willpower: Each man is offered a gorgeous woman in exchange for his soul. Which guy is more likely to succumb, do you think? The hermit just says 'I've spent 10 years without ANYONE; I certainly don't need this woman to make me happy.' while the office guy thinks 'My soul? Well, I've never used it before so what's the loss? If I turn down this woman, that would be pretty gay of me. Besides, marrying this babe will make everyone at the office jealous, and make me look real slick!'

 

[ChrisHaines]

Tequila Sunrise,
I did away with the Max DEX and Speed Reduction mechanic and changed the weight of armor. When wearing Heavy armor, you triple its weight, when wearing Medium armor you double its weight, and the weight of Light armor is unchanged when worn. Then I moved to Encumbrance. If you carry a Light load you suffer no penalties. If you carry a Medium load your DEX is reduced by ¼ rounded down only when determining your modifier to AC, your Speed is reduced by ¼ rounded down to the nearest five foot increment, your Run speed is limited to four times your base Speed, and you suffer a -4 check penalty to any Skill or Ability check that involves movement. If you carry a Heavy load your DEX is reduced by ½ rounded down when determining your modifier to AC, your Speed is reduced by ½ rounded down to the nearest five foot increment, your Run speed is limited to three times your base Speed, and you suffer a -8 penalty to any Skill or Ability check that requires movement. It is pretty generic and you could argue some of the realistic aspects, but for me and my players it was acceptable.

I slightly altered the Grapple mechanics. I'll just cut and paste what I have written up.

Grappling
You draw an Attack of Opportunity if you attempt to Grapple an opponent. If an Attack of Opportunity is successful against you while attempting to grapple, any damage done is deducted from your first Grapple check. You then make a Melee Touch Attack. If your touch attack is successful, both you and your opponent make opposed Grapple checks. A Grapple check is 1d20 + your Base Attack bonus + your STR bonus. If a combatant is larger than the other, they receive a +4 bonus to their Grapple checks for every size level larger. If the opponent fails, both of you are considered Grappled. Combatants that are Grappled do not threaten the area around them and do not receive their DEX bonus to AC against opponents out of the grapple. If you attempt to Grapple an opponent that is already Grappled, you do not provoke an Attack of Opportunity, and the melee touch attack automatically succeeds. Combatants may attack with a Light weapon while Grappling, but they may not fight two handed.
A Grapple check is 1d20 + your Base Attack bonus + your STR bonus. You can make as many additional Grapple checks as you have iterative attacks as a Full Round Action. When defending with an opposed Grapple check, you can make as many checks as your attacker makes. If a combatant is larger than the other, they receive a +4 bonus to their Grapple checks for every size level larger. There are several things you can do with a successful Grapple check once you are Grappling an opponent. You can damage your opponent with an Unarmed Strike or Light weapon, only scoring a Critical hit if you roll the threat range of the weapon used and confirm it in addition to beating your opponent’s opposed Grapple check. You may Pin your opponent for one round, rendering the opponent immobile but not Helpless, giving any attacks from anyone other than you against the pinned opponent a +2 bonus to hit. You may break out of a Pin with a successful Grapple check, leaving you still grappling with your opponent. You may also break free of a Grapple with a successful Grapple check. Combatants may attempt to use Tumble check instead of a Grapple check to win an opposed Grapple roll to escape free of a Pin or Grapple as a Standard Action. Escaping from a Pin does not get you out of the Grapple, just from being Pinned. You may move half your Speed with a successful grapple check, taking the opponent with you, but doing so takes a Move-Equivalent action. If you are more than two Sizes larger than your opponent, you may move normally with a Grapple check. You may attempt to retrieve a stored item in one hand with a successful grapple check, but doing so takes a Full Round action. You may use an opponent’s Light weapon or object held against them with a successful grapple check. You may assist an ally with Grappling an opponent by making a Grapple check as a Full Round Action before your ally makes their Grapple checks that round. For every 10 points you score on your Grapple check, your ally can add a bonus of +2 to their Grapple checks for the round. Opponents being Grappled by more than one opponent only need to make a single Grapple check to escape which must beat each opponent’s Grapple check.

Here are some feats I used or altered as well.

Improved Grapple
Prereqs - Combat Reflexes
Benefit - You do not provoke an Attack of Opportunity when initiating a Grapple and receive a +4 bonus to your first Grapple check when initiating a Grapple with an opponent.

Grapple Expertise
Prereqs - Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple
Benefit - You are able to Grapple with less effort. You have the benefit of being able to threaten the squares around you while grappling, attacking with any One Handed Melee attack or with an Unarmed Attack. If an opponent attempts to Grapple you while you are grappling with another opponent they must roll for their Melee Touch attack and you can take an Attack of Opportunity if one is normally provoked. Opponent’s are also at a penalty of –4 to escape from all Grapples with you.

Sleeper Hold
Prereqs - Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Grapple Expertise
Benefit - If you maintain a successful Pin for one whole round while Grappling, you may attempt a stun attack as a Full Round action on the next round. You and your opponent make an opposed Grapple check. If you succeed, the opponent must make a Fortitude save versus a DC equal to 10 + ½ your level [rounded up] + your STR modifier or be Stunned for one round.

Wrenching Hold
Prereqs - Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Grapple Expertise, Weapon Focus [Grapple], Improved Critical [Grapple]
Benefit - You can cause a great deal of damage with a Grapple check as a Standard Action. If your Grapple check succeeds you deal an automatic Critical hit with your unarmed attack or light weapon damage without the need to roll the weapons threat range or confirming it.

Death Grip
Prereqs - Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Grapple Expertise, Sleeper Hold, Wrenching Hold, Weapon Focus [Grapple], Improved Critical [Grapple]
Benefit - If you perform and maintain a successful Sleeper Hold on an opponent for one round, you may perform a Coup De Grace while Grappling as a Full Round action on your victim your following turn by making a successful Grapple check.