Will Saves Modified by Charisma (Also a New Save: Perception)

[Nyeshet]

Tequila Sunrise, I think your example is inappropriate to the question. A better one is as follows:

We have Timothy the Fighter, a charismatic man who has lead a mercenary company for nearly a decade. His is a forceful and sometimes even gruff personality, but his men know they can depend on him. When negotiating a treaty his presense alone is sometimes enough to intimidate the other side into accepting a bit less than they might otherwise have pushed for.

We have Jonathon the Fighter, a wise man who is rarely mislead - when following a trail or when following a conversation. He is a quiet and perceptive man, given to contemplation - of himself, of his foes, of the current plan, of the field of battle, etc.

Which would you think would be more likely to succumb to a charm or complusion? Which do you think would be more likely to succumb to an illusion?

Timothy is a stubborn man. If one attempts to place a compulsion upon him he will likely resist it - if only on principle. He is used to getting his own way and convincing others to accept and perhaps even like it when he does so. He will not readily allow himself to be ordered about. On the other hand, his stubbornness likely brings with it a narrowness of vision - he focuses so much on what he wants that he misses the little details left off to the side, and as such he may more readily fall for an illusion - especially if he doesn't want to disbelieve it (ie: it shows him what he wants to see).

Jonathon, however, is likely too perceptive to be so readily fooled by an illusion. He likely will notice the blurring of minute details or the very slight out of sync between mouth and words in a more complicated illusion. On the other hand, he is not as direct or forceful as Timothy. He tends to be more of a follower than a leader - and even when he leads he does not truly stand out or as readily gather men to him as Timothy. When faced with a compulsion, he is more likely to fold - especially if it requires him to do what he may have wished to do anyway but never had the nerve to attempt.

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In your example you have the high Cha / low Wis character 'sucking up' to others. I don't see that as an example of high Cha. High Charisma is a strong presense - animal magnetism to some, perseverence and social adaptability to others. Timothy has a strong presense. When he enters a room it is not uncommon for others to notice him immediately - perhaps even stare, aware at some subconscious level that there is something 'more' to him than others. When he raises his voice and calls others to his banner, they come. They somehow feel that he has a better chance for success than those that have come before. They may think that he or his methods are a bit 'off', but still they come, confident in coming success, and perhaps thinking that they may alleviate any oddities by their own actions - during or after.

Wisdom does not necessarily lead to the ability to better resist temptation. It merely makes it easier to see other paths, to see the truth of the matter (including the more subtle consequences, perhaps overlooked by others), and to fully understand the risks, the follies, the lies, etc that may be involved in succumbing to temptation.

Charisma is the strength of personality, the force of will, the drive to succeed, and the ability to convince others that you can succeed - even should the odds be against you. It allows one to bull their way through uncomfortable truths with forceful bluffs, to take a (social) risk that may pay off grandly, and to awe or intimidate people by their very presense. Consider Turning Undead. It is the presense of the priest - not his wisdom - that so forcefully drives off the undead, or even destroys them. Consider bardic music. It is the strength of their personality and will that overwhelms the will of others, allowing the bard to fascinate and suggest (ie: compel) some actions that otherwise may not have been attempted. One could even argue that the Sorcerer's force of will is overwhelming reality, forcing it to bend to their will and alter to their wishes - or conversely that they are in effect 'wooing' reality, seducing it into altering its nature to suit their whims. Either way, this suggests again that Charisma represents a strength of will, a stubbornness, and/or a certain magnetism that allows one to overwhelm the wills of others with one's own will - in short, willpower.


Wisdom represents awareness, perception, enlightenment - the five senses, mystical enhancements to those senses, and new senses as well.

Charisma represents one's presense - whether awe-inspiring, intimidating, or sheer animal magnetism - and the ability to use one's presense to overshadow the presenses of others, perhaps bending them to one's will if the overshadowing it intense enough.

Some tend to think that priests, usually thought of as wise, should be the example for wisdom based will power. After all, do not these priests resist temptations, hold off undead by the strength of their faith, etc?

Yet note that priests that gather crowds to their temples / churches / shrines are more likely to have a high Charisma than those that do not, and Turning Undead is already noted as being based in Charisma - not Wisdom. Yes, some priests resist temptations - but others do not. It is not necessarily true that just because one has the wisdom to realise the dangers of succumbing to temptation one also has the will power to resist it. I would state that those that resist it have a greater presense than those that do not.

I would further state that a Charisma should be renamed to Presense, for its present name does not match its description of 'force of personality', nor its use in turning undead, bardic music, or some forms of casting. Presense is a better term for such, in my opinion.

And I would argue that a character with high Presense does not necessarily have ranks in social skills, nor necessarily even have the Leadership feat. Without these it becomes less obvious that Presense can represent the magnetism often envisioned for high Charisma characters. Sure, the character can do well in social interactions - if they take the time to add ranks to such skills. And at lower levels they do not even need to add such ranks - amongst those of low level it is almost unimportant, as their bonus from a high Charisma, in effect, grants them psuedoranks in those skills. (That is to say, there is little difference between the results of a Bluff 4 ranks, 10 Cha NPC and those of a Bluff 0 ranks, 18 Cha NPC.) Yet even at mid levels the difference is readily felt.

Thus I can see a gruff NPC without followers and rarely involving themselves in social interaction having a 12+ Charisma - just making use of it in different ways, perhaps. A hermit sorcerer, for instance, could perhaps fall into this pattern.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Tequila Sunrise, I think your example is inappropriate to the question. A better one is as follows:

We have Timothy the Fighter, a charismatic man who has lead a mercenary company for nearly a decade. His is a forceful and sometimes even gruff personality, but his men know they can depend on him. When negotiating a treaty his presense alone is sometimes enough to intimidate the other side into accepting a bit less than they might otherwise have pushed for.

We have Jonathon the Fighter, a wise man who is rarely mislead - when following a trail or when following a conversation. He is a quiet and perceptive man, given to contemplation - of himself, of his foes, of the current plan, of the field of battle, etc.

Which would you think would be more likely to succumb to a charm or complusion? Which do you think would be more likely to succumb to an illusion?

Timothy is a stubborn man. If one attempts to place a compulsion upon him he will likely resist it - if only on principle. He is used to getting his own way and convincing others to accept and perhaps even like it when he does so. He will not readily allow himself to be ordered about. On the other hand, his stubbornness likely brings with it a narrowness of vision - he focuses so much on what he wants that he misses the little details left off to the side, and as such he may more readily fall for an illusion - especially if he doesn't want to disbelieve it (ie: it shows him what he wants to see).

Jonathon, however, is likely too perceptive to be so readily fooled by an illusion. He likely will notice the blurring of minute details or the very slight out of sync between mouth and words in a more complicated illusion. On the other hand, he is not as direct or forceful as Timothy. He tends to be more of a follower than a leader - and even when he leads he does not truly stand out or as readily gather men to him as Timothy. When faced with a compulsion, he is more likely to fold - especially if it requires him to do what he may have wished to do anyway but never had the nerve to attempt.

I'd put my money on Jonathon in both circumstances. While Timothy's experience as a negotiator and commander give him little insight into his own character and thus little means to resist temptation, Jonathan's perception grants him insight into that sudden strange voice in his mind telling him to do X and thus giving him the strength to resist the compulsion. You see, Timothy has a bigger ego than Jonathan which is exactly what other charismatic people and what an enchanter's spells would target. Generally speaking, the bigger the ego, the weaker the will.

 

[Nyeshet]

I'd put my money on Jonathon in both circumstances. While Timothy's experience as a negotiator and commander give him little insight into his own character and thus little means to resist temptation, Jonathan's perception grants him insight into that sudden strange voice in his mind telling him to do X and thus giving him the strength to resist the compulsion. You see, Timothy has a bigger ego than Jonathan which is exactly what other charismatic people and what an enchanter's spells would target. Generally speaking, the bigger the ego, the weaker the will.

Then we will have to agree to disagree, for I see the stronger will in Timothy rather than Jonathon. Timothy has the force of will, the stubbornness, the verve, needed to resist the voice, while Jonathon as none of this. He may see the dangers, the troubles, following the voice will result in, but he lacks the strength of will to resist the compulsion. Being perceptive does not necessarily mean having a strong will.

I have known perceptive people, and not all of them have a strong or forceful will power. I have also known individuals of strong will and stubborn nature, and virtually all of them automatically resist anything that seems to be pressing them towards one option over another - resisting at times on principle if not sheer stubbornness. They do not necessarily fully understand the situation, they may not even make the wisest choice - indeed some of their choices have been notably lacking in wisdom, but they are strong of will power irregardless.

That suggests to me that will power and wisdom / perception are two different things, and I can't help but notice that nearly all of those that have such a strong will are also the types that tend to be able to resist being pressed into a situation, conversation, or idea they don't like, that tend to be well able to steer a conversation in the direction they want it, that tend to be well able to gather others to their cause and encourage others to take on their view point. Their arguments are not necessarily without holes, but the sheer force of their presense tends to have some overlook - or ignore - such tendencies. All of these are traits associated with Charisma ability: its skills, its associated feats, etc. Similarly, if you look to literature, you find that those able to hold off vampires (ie: turn undead), charm (not literally, usually) a crowd with music, or bend reality to their will (ie: sorcerers) have strong wills - but not always are they wise or perceptive. Similarly, there are many characters in literature that are wise and sage-like, but have no real strength of will.

All this suggests to me that Wisdom is not the ability to which a Will power save should be applied. Perception, yes, but Willpower, no. This leaves Intellect and Charisma - and Intellect is obviously not a good choice for will power. As for Charisma, there are already precidents in the game, in literature, etc that lend credit to applying the Willpower save unto it. Those that Turn Undead must need have a high Charisma if they wish to succeed. Those that utilize Bardic music to fascinate and charm others - that is to say overshadowing / overwhelming the will of another with their own - utilize Charima and needs have a high score in that ability if they wish to succeed.

Perhaps your view of Charisma is limited to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Gather Information? If you do not look at all that Charisma affects, you cannot see the effectiveness of these arguments, I admit.

By your arguements a low Cha / high Wis bard should be more effective in using bardic music to fascinate, suggest, etc others. But that is not the case.

Similarly, your arguements seem to suggest that a low Cha / high Wis Cleric should be better at Turning undead than a Cleric having a high Cha / low Wis. Yet again this is not the case.

Wisdom relates to awareness, perception, enlightenment, common sense. It does not relate to strength of will, force of personality, stubbornness, or however you wish to call the willpower save.

 

[Felix]

I think there is a more elegant solution than pegging all Will saves to Charisma, or keeping them tied to Wisdom. Split the save. All (Mind affecting) spells and affects are tied to Charisma, and the rest of the Will saves are still modified by Wisdom.

There is a feat in... Complete Adventurer I think... called Force of Personality which does exactly this.

If you like, you can break it down into to different saves, Will saves and Mind Affecting saves, but this is a very good means to split the Will saves down the middle, while still keeping the importance of a high Wisdom and Charisma. Shares the load, so to speak.

 

[Nyeshet]

I think there is a more elegant solution than pegging all Will saves to Charisma, or keeping them tied to Wisdom. Split the save. All (Mind affecting) spells and affects are tied to Charisma, and the rest of the Will saves are still modified by Wisdom.

There is a feat in... Complete Adventurer I think... called Force of Personality which does exactly this.

If you like, you can break it down into to different saves, Will saves and Mind Affecting saves, but this is a very good means to split the Will saves down the middle, while still keeping the importance of a high Wisdom and Charisma. Shares the load, so to speak.

This is basically that of which I and the original poster were arguing in favor. The problem was that some see Willpower as an innate aspect of Wisdom rather than force of personality / impact of presense / strength of will, etc.

 

[drexes]

To the people arguing charisma and wisdom as to which helps people overcome compulsion or illusion. I have an answer, which is entirely opinion, it depends on the individual. Some people are going to have the 'That can't be because it just doesn't make any sense' reaction and others will have the 'Grit there teeth in denial of the unnatural' reaction. Why not just let the save depend on which mode of resistance is apprpriate to the character?

I should have started off by saying that I do not think charisma is a drop stat. IMC, and in many I've played in, social interactions were very important. But if the stat was changed would wisdom be a drop stat? Hardly. The list of wisdom skills alone would keep people from being to eager to crush it.

I think an easy solution to the probelm , if you think there is one, would be the feat from complete adventurer mentioned above. Make it a character option. Don't charge a feat, just let each player determine which of the two stats is appropriate to how his character overcomes willpower effects. In all honesty, I don't think much would change, because the only character class that that might come out ahead is the sorceror and maybe a charisma high paladin. But really, did you think the paladin was going to fail that will save anyway?

As always, just my two cents which get very cold in my pocket when in Quebec... though I've never been to Quebec and they speak French there and I don't, so I never want to go to Quebec, so it should never be an issue...n'est pas?

Drexes

 

[Felix]

The problem was that some see Willpower as an innate aspect of Wisdom rather than force of personality / impact of presense / strength of will, etc.

Who are you all arguing against? Sure, folks are going to have different opinions, but this is to establish a house rule for a single game, right? I mean, it's not as if we're trying to make 4th edition inculde this or have a 3.75 revision.

I think the best part about the way the rules currently work is they are fairly simple. So the best way to include Charisma in saves should be a simple one, and (Mind-affecting) gives you that simplicity. So does replacing Cha with Wis, but then you will have Wis as the new dump stat, and you're trying to avoid that.

It's not as simple as just leaving the system alone, but there you have it.

 

[airwalkrr]

I think the best part about the way the rules currently work is they are fairly simple. So the best way to include Charisma in saves should be a simple one, and (Mind-affecting) gives you that simplicity. So does replacing Cha with Wis, but then you will have Wis as the new dump stat, and you're trying to avoid that.

What you are advocating is essentially the same thing that I am advocating. You just call all saves modified by Charisma or Wisdom Will saves while I break them down into Will and Perception. However, the suggestion that all Mind-Affecting abilities require a Charisma-based save and all other saves currently under the category of Will remain Wisdom-based is a good one. I think it makes a good modicum of sense.

 

[Felix]

I think it makes a good modicum of sense.

At very least, one modicum and three smidges of sense.