Will we get 5 tiers of game in 5.5 insted of current 4?

Micah Sweet

Legend
Since 3rd edition was released, high level play has been about drastically increasing HP, more powerful spells, more magic items, etc. For the first 25-ish years of the game, the mechanical power of the characters did actually stop around 9th level. Higher level characters were assumed to have more impact on the campaign world, creating strongholds, ruling over empires, even ascending to godhood.
The contemporary system has made high level play less interesting in some ways - it's just more of what you've already been doing for the entire campaign.
But I don't think games back then or games today actually use any of the high level material anyway.
What would make groups use the game material? Well, I think most campaigns end due to the time spent and complexities of high level play.
I can't imagine a game where groups would ever use it that would still fit the power fantasy theme of D&D.
Good analysis. I prefer the old way, but it was never super-popular. On the other hand, running the same style all the way to 20 doesn't really work either.
 

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I could have maybe talked about HP inflation (I am fully down for lower them) maybe even the getting different xp and having different charts but you already admitted you were comparing an 11th level fighter to a 12th level wizard (with 6th level spells)... but this one statement "Magic is magic" means we will neve see eye to eye, and there is no point trying.

a 7th level fighter should not be magic... but he should be a superhuman paragon. All classes should be balanced off having a similar level of versatilty and power... and you just will never see that.
And this is where I differ.
Magic should be terrifying.
Only the bold, at la Conan, should face it.
Magic takes time to master.
I am not a proponent of classes to be balanced. At least not by level. A wizard should have a harder time to level than the fighter and our fighter should not be as close hp wise as the wizard. Heck, the difference between a d6 and a d10 is only 2 points on average. At least, in 1ed, only martials could get that sweet +3 or more hp per level. In 5ed, I have seen wizard with more HP than their fighter... go figure!

And again, 5ed is great. Way better than its predecessors. But there are choices that should have been dropped. Class balance is a myth, an utopia that many entertains. Balance means only one thing. Blandness. Make the classes unbalanced but with different exp to level. Make it so that magic have a cost and all classes using magic must level at a slower pace. Martial will get their place not as the poor unlucky player forced to play the play the martial but will be a very good choice.
 

You two speak as if you have TEH TRVTH, the One True Way of high level gaming, or something. As if you know the market better than anyone else.

Needless to say, I don't buy it. I think you are rather focused on your own frustrated desires, and a little less on some of the limitations on high level gaming that aren't even about game design. But, you know, I could be wrong.

So, I hope you two get together, and create an OGL product that rewrites high level D&D, and it is a smash hit!
um.... did you iss the part you quoted where i litterally said I THINK... not I KNOW?!?!

I think you are rather focused on your own frustrated desires,
since you used the same words "I THINK" should this be labled as you "speak as if you have TEH TRVTH, the One True Way of "

cause again I didn't even try to hide it was all what I thought.

I don't know how to express to you that what I think may or may not be fact, but we can not prove either way and in order to talk about our opinions we need to express what we think...

So, I hope you two get together, and create an OGL product that rewrites high level D&D, and it is a smash hit!
tbh I don't think (not know not ultimate fact, think) that we agree on the answers even if we see a similar problem... so that most likely wont happen.
 

I disagree. TSR reserved high levels for kingdom-building and keeping high-level they felt should be in the game but largely out of reach for PCs. After 9th level or so, you're supposed to re-focus your efforts on the big picture, and leave the life of an adventurer behind for the most part. That idea wasn't popular so it was gradually dropped, leaving us with the high level mess we have now.
the problem with that is the party sort of where being pulled apart by their differing high-level world responsibilities, it is however not a bad idea as at a high level you can logically change how things get done in the kingdom or whatever, I would mix the stronghold gameplay with the Avengers save the world stuff to make high level even worth playing worst case going into a dungeon for a particular magic item is still on the table.

And this is where I differ.
Magic should be terrifying.
Only the bold, at la Conan, should face it.
Magic takes time to master.
I am not a proponent of classes to be balanced. At least not by level. A wizard should have a harder time to level than the fighter and our fighter should not be as close hp wise as the wizard. Heck, the difference between a d6 and a d10 is only 2 points on average. At least, in 1ed, only martials could get that sweet +3 or more hp per level. In 5ed, I have seen wizard with more HP than their fighter... go figure!

And again, 5ed is great. Way better than its predecessors. But there are choices that should have been dropped. Class balance is a myth, an utopia that many entertains. Balance means only one thing. Blandness. Make the classes unbalanced but with different exp to level. Make it so that magic have a cost and all classes using magic must level at a slower pace. Martial will get their place not as the poor unlucky player forced to play the play the martial but will be a very good choice.
your suggestion is not inherently bad but its times in dnd sailed away in 3e people do not like having classes level faster than each other, and most modern fantasy does not portray magic as dangerous as that it self evolved out of magic as something evil which outside of frow backs or survivers from older times is dead these days or at least draw backs that matter.
 

And this is where I differ.
Magic should be terrifying.
Only the bold, at la Conan, should face it.
Magic takes time to master.
I am not a proponent of classes to be balanced.
and this is why we will not ever see eye to eye...
At least not by level. A wizard should have a harder time to level than the fighter and our fighter should not be as close hp wise as the wizard. Heck, the difference between a d6 and a d10 is only 2 points on average. At least, in 1ed, only martials could get that sweet +3 or more hp per level. In 5ed, I have seen wizard with more HP than their fighter... go figure!
I do agree with you on this though...
in my perfect world we would take the HD system of 5e and cut it down... give everyone 1d code lowerHP (so d4 wizard d8 fighter) give everyone 3HD at 1st level (maxed so 12hp wizard 24 fighter) and then only give additional HD at odd levels and take the 2e post level 10 numbers for even numbers... but No CON bonus to hp gained... so a 2nd level wizard and fighter would have 13 and 27 respectfully... then at level 3 variables start as wizards get 1d4 and fighter get 1d8 each. But I would keep the spending HD gives back HD+con mod hp (the healthier you are the faster you recover not the more damage you can take) and make more 4e style healing "Sppend a HD and get this bonus" and "Heal as if you spent a HD"
Class balance is a myth, an utopia that many entertains. Balance means only one thing. Blandness.
this is back to we just wont see eye to eye
 

Stalker0

Legend
I think the best approach is the Epic 6 type approach, just adapted for high levels.

At some point in the game (maybe 11th or 13th level somewhere in there) you stop gaining levels. But then you gain abilities (or feats or whatever) that you choose from a list to further upgrade your character.

We already have this with their epic abilities in the DMG, all they need to do is expand it. Further, they could classify them into buckets, mundane and various states of supernatural. This gives you the dial for players who want grounded high level fighters (like a Beowulf) vs cusp of supernatural warriors (Captain America) vs full superhero (Thor). Just pick abilities from the list you consider appropriate for your game.
 

Horwath

Hero
I think the best approach is the Epic 6 type approach, just adapted for high levels.

At some point in the game (maybe 11th or 13th level somewhere in there) you stop gaining levels. But then you gain abilities (or feats or whatever) that you choose from a list to further upgrade your character.

We already have this with their epic abilities in the DMG, all they need to do is expand it. Further, they could classify them into buckets, mundane and various states of supernatural. This gives you the dial for players who want grounded high level fighters (like a Beowulf) vs cusp of supernatural warriors (Captain America) vs full superhero (Thor). Just pick abilities from the list you consider appropriate for your game.
E6 was great for 3.5e as number there went totally crazy later on.

E9 would be great stop point for 5E if you want that.

single 5th level slot for casters, 3rd level spells for half casters, proficiency bonus of +4, most classes also get cool stuff at level 9.
 


I think the best approach is the Epic 6 type approach, just adapted for high levels.

At some point in the game (maybe 11th or 13th level somewhere in there) you stop gaining levels. But then you gain abilities (or feats or whatever) that you choose from a list to further upgrade your character.

We already have this with their epic abilities in the DMG, all they need to do is expand it. Further, they could classify them into buckets, mundane and various states of supernatural. This gives you the dial for players who want grounded high level fighters (like a Beowulf) vs cusp of supernatural warriors (Captain America) vs full superhero (Thor). Just pick abilities from the list you consider appropriate for your game.
E6 was great for 3.5e as number there went totally crazy later on.

E9 would be great stop point for 5E if you want that.

single 5th level slot for casters, 3rd level spells for half casters, proficiency bonus of +4, most classes also get cool stuff at level 9.
Epic levels already kind of work that way now for 21+ you just get xp then a special epic boon and/or feat... I got a warllock up to having 3 or 4 of those epic boons once.

Taking that idea and moving it to 9, 10, or 11 may be for the best

((THIS IS ENTIRELY OPNION THE ONLY FACT IS WHAT HAPPENS OVER 20)
 

Horwath

Hero
probably 10th then just because people like those nice round numbers.
yeah.
10th level is also great. also lots of features that are nice.
But I would keep it at that. lvl11 goes into next tier with level 6 spells and for lots of classes if a jump in power.

after level 10, you gain an ASI(feat) or you can take a level in another class and get that class features and normal multiclass, but no raising in level or extra HPs and HDs.

Maybe you can get some extra health if you gain levels in a class with higher HD.
I.E. 10th level wizard advances in E10 version, and instead of ASI or feat, takes a level of fighter.
Gains features of a fighter as normal multiclass and 4 HPs as 1st level fighter has 10 HP vs wizard 6, and if taken more, every level gain 2 HP, difference from wizards 4 per level to fighters 6.
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
With respect, in AD&D they gave you some followers, and told you jack about how to play kingdom building.

"They knew what to do with it, but didn't actually do it," seems an odd assertion.
And the thing is they DID actually do it - for BECMI, in the Companion set. Where they had Dominion management rules and the War Machine for that kind of mid-high level activity. They just never did it for AD&D IIRC - which I've always found kind of odd.

(Now it's been decades since I've looked at those rules and even longer since I actually used them in a campaign, so the rosy memories of my youth that say they worked ok are probably wrong - or at least missing all of the parts we ignored to get them to work. But they did have them! They tried to fulfill that promise somewhere!)
 

I am not a proponent of classes to be balanced. At least not by level. A wizard should have a harder time to level than the fighter
okay XP talk...

a lot of people just compare the charts, like everyone got the same XP. about 2 years into 2e for us we met someone that showed us we missed a rule and made level comparisons even harder. Class based XP.
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now XP was tracked sepretly... so I had a high level like 13/7 thief wizard because I stole spell books that were worth a ton of GP and as such XP.

edit and HD used to have people complain about 'kill stealing'

fighter fights 3 rounds against the warlord, the wizard throws a SoD and kills it... nobody gets HD xp... or worse yet 2 fighters against 3 enemies trying to get the 'kill shot in' to get the 20,30, maybe 60xp for it.
 
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And the thing is they DID actually do it - for BECMI, in the Companion set. Where they had Dominion management rules and the War Machine for that kind of mid-high level activity. They just never did it for AD&D IIRC - which I've always found kind of odd.

(Now it's been decades since I've looked at those rules and even longer since I actually used them in a campaign, so the rosy memories of my youth that say they worked ok are probably wrong - or at least missing all of the parts we ignored to get them to work. But they did have them! They tried to fulfill that promise somewhere!)
They worked out quite well.
One thing is often forgotten is the fact that high level play should almost always be planar hopping. At this point, the characters are supposed to be legends and the threats of the mundane world should not be sufficient for them. Gods might ask them to thread where they are not allowed because of ancient pacts and edicts. But it is not always so. At least, not all adventures should be the end of the world...
 

okay XP talk...

a lot of people just compare the charts, like everyone got the same XP. about 2 years into 2e for us we met someone that showed us we missed a rule and made level comparisons even harder. Class based XP.
View attachment 254486

now XP was tracked sepretly... so I had a high level like 13/7 thief wizard because I stole spell books that were worth a ton of GP and as such XP.
Yep. And?
That is exactly what I am talking about. But remember that back then, the backstab ability was at best meh... You needed to be in the back and unnoticed. Unless able to become invisible, you were good for one backstab per fight. If a DM was generous, you could backstab once every two or three rounds depending on circumstances and do not forget that you had to divide your experience by two and then apply it to each classes if applicable.
So in your thief example. You stole a spell book worth 10,000 gold. That does not mean 5000 xp for both thief and wizard. Only for the thief. And if your exp would bring you more than one level you would lose that exp. (I don't quite remember if it was 1xp shy of next level or just flush to the level though. Could check later.) This means that a 2nd level thief finding/stealing this book, would lose 3500xp.

But yes, this way of doing things was more to my taste too. Good job on bring up that part.
 

Yep. And?
and it doesn't work as well.
That is exactly what I am talking about. But remember that back then, the backstab ability was at best meh...
I don't know double or tipple damage was pretty good but 4 or 5 times modifiers got pretty awesome
you were good for one backstab per fight.
yup... 1 big hit, then sit back and relax or play secondary fighter.
had to divide your experience by two and then apply it to each classes if applicable.
So in your thief example. You stole a spell book worth 10,000 gold. That does not mean 5000 xp for both thief and wizard. Only for the thief. And if your exp would bring you more than one level you would lose that exp. (I don't quite remember if it was 1xp shy of next level or just flush to the level though. Could check later.) This means that a 2nd level thief finding/stealing this book, would lose 3500xp.
I don't remember the cost of everything. I remember the number and levels of the spells got the price up for the book. I also remember theives leveling almost everygame even multi classes ones if they were trying hard enough... other classes had boom or bust things and as I said above it lead to issue... who got that kill? did that spell help or just deal damage?

you were compareing a fighter to a wizard... and saying the wizard was 1 level higher, but it could be 2 or 3 if they got to use big spells and as such stole kills from the fighter while getting some for themselves...
But yes, this way of doing things was more to my taste too. Good job on bring up that part.
 


I think it's pretty bold to assume XP is going to last much longer as a primary assumption, much less assume we're going to make XP progression more difficult to use and frustrating for the players to experience (yay! everyone but me levels! I'm sure going to keep playing this character that hinders my progression for a long, long time!).
I think I had more tolerance for that when I was younger
 


Vaalingrade

Legend
I think I had more tolerance for that when I was younger
For us, I feel like it was a factor of living on the same campus.

I vividly remember standing around at the end of the night, waiting for the DM to total up the XP plus and bonuses someone might have earned and writing them down on our sheets. Then we walked across the way to our dorms and stayed up another two hours on AIM or playing Smash Brothers.

Then I remember one night, years later we're at the DM's house, I've got a 30 mile drive ahead of me, a couple others are going 20 the other direction and the DM; she's suddenly like 'why am I keeping you for this? How about I say you leveled and everyone gets to go home'.

And no one in our group ever used XP again.
 

and it doesn't work as well.

I don't know double or tipple damage was pretty good but 4 or 5 times modifiers got pretty awesome

yup... 1 big hit, then sit back and relax or play secondary fighter.
A good thief with great equipment could do a few backstabs in a fight. But unless he got lucky, it was usually one or none. Using a short bow (since the thief's AC was not very good) or resorting to thrown daggers/darts was usually the best possible outcome unless multiclassed. Otherwise, the thief was in deep s**t.

I don't remember the cost of everything. I remember the number and levels of the spells got the price up for the book. I also remember theives leveling almost everygame even multi classes ones if they were trying hard enough... other classes had boom or bust things and as I said above it lead to issue... who got that kill? did that spell help or just deal damage?
Most exp would come from the gold (1ed) anyways and exp from monsters was almost abysmal. Since gold would be shared equally, it meant that whomever got a kill did not went up as fast as you might remember.

you were compareing a fighter to a wizard... and saying the wizard was 1 level higher, but it could be 2 or 3 if they got to use big spells and as such stole kills from the fighter while getting some for themselves...
This is not what I remember. The highest level member of any group was usually the thief (unless low level and a druid was there...) and above level 5 the thief could be higher than the average by 3 levels! And if the thief was especially good in take risks bonus for traps and chests (AKA Stealing the treasure before it was shared), you could add another level. The slowest class to acquire level because of kills was exactly the wizard (then the illusionist for obvious reasons). This was a bit alleviated in 2nd edition, but in that edition, all kills were shared equally. Leaving only the table you so graciously shared with us (and which I had all but forgotten) to bring a bit discrepancy in the levels in a group.
 

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