Wish vs Miracle
- Thread starter marune
- Start date
Sejs
First Post
The only reason I can think of is the final arbitration of a Miracle is up to your deity, whereas Wish is all up to you.
In terms of power and restrictions, Miracle is the more powerful spell by far. Miracle says 'you can get more powerful effects, but it's pretty much up to your god how that plays out', as opposed to Wish which says 'you can get more powerful effects, but you will get screwed royally'.
Bit annoying, really.
In terms of power and restrictions, Miracle is the more powerful spell by far. Miracle says 'you can get more powerful effects, but it's pretty much up to your god how that plays out', as opposed to Wish which says 'you can get more powerful effects, but you will get screwed royally'.
Bit annoying, really.
Three_Haligonians
First Post
I have always just chalked it up to the fact that wish can have that "monkey's paw" syndrome that can come back and bite you while with miracle sometimes the answer is just "no"
J from Three Haligonians
J from Three Haligonians
frankthedm
First Post
Balance for Sorcerers. Otherwise wish gets too good for a sorcerer since the few spells they have access to are their major balacing factor.skeptic said:
DevoutlyApathetic
First Post
frankthedm said:
So Miracle is unbalanced for Favored Souls?
frankthedm
First Post
That class was made after the core books were released, miracle was written in mind with only preparing casters getting it.DevoutlyApathetic said:
As it happens I am in the group who feels Favored souls are slightly behind the power curve, needing Wis and Cha for thier spells and being expected to be front line as well as the percieved band-aid since they are a divine caster with access to cure spells. It also fits well for the class to be very able to directly call in the head honcho for small favors. After all, the FS's deity is so possesive; It does not want the character knowing too much about other gods. [knowledge: religion is not a class skill]
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Thanee
First Post
Skills are not exactly granted by the deities. 
Miracles are, however, and that's exactly how I use this spell. You ask your deity to perform a Miracle. You better do not do this, unless it's really needed. It should be a rare spell to be used in dire circumstances, not the answer to your daily problems.
I see the spell duplication as a limit of what the deity can do to help you, unlike Wish the cleric does not get to determine the effect of the spell. It's entirely up to the deity what will happen exactly.
Bye
Thanee
Miracles are, however, and that's exactly how I use this spell. You ask your deity to perform a Miracle. You better do not do this, unless it's really needed. It should be a rare spell to be used in dire circumstances, not the answer to your daily problems.
I see the spell duplication as a limit of what the deity can do to help you, unlike Wish the cleric does not get to determine the effect of the spell. It's entirely up to the deity what will happen exactly.
Bye
Thanee
frankthedm
First Post
Wish lets one see the real face of magic, Miracle really lets a gods true nature show through
Wishing a city invading army be defeated might wind up causing a worse disaster where the invading army is destroyed along with the city. Requesting a similar miracle from a philosophy where the casting cleric got his War and Destruction domains from stands a decent chance of refusal.
Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.
Even wish, however, has its limits.
A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)
Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).
Material Component: When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost: The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.
Miracle
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Luck 9
Components: V, S, XP; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes
You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.
A miracle can do any of the following things.
Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.
If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost.
Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following.
Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error.
Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.
In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused.
A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost: 5,000 XP (for some uses of the miracle spell; see above).
Wishing a city invading army be defeated might wind up causing a worse disaster where the invading army is destroyed along with the city. Requesting a similar miracle from a philosophy where the casting cleric got his War and Destruction domains from stands a decent chance of refusal.
Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.
Even wish, however, has its limits.
A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)
Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).
Material Component: When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost: The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.
Miracle
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Luck 9
Components: V, S, XP; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes
You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.
A miracle can do any of the following things.
Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.
If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost.
Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following.
Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error.
Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.
In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused.
A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost: 5,000 XP (for some uses of the miracle spell; see above).
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HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
frankthedm said:
The only Knowledge skill my character has any ranks in at all is Knowledge: Religion.
"Everything I need to know I learned from St. Cuthbert."
Here's a Wish/Miracle question.
If you buy/scribe a scroll of Miracle that DOESN'T include the price for the 5,000xp cost, can you cast the Miracle WITH the 5,000xp by dropping in your own XP later as the scroll user?
--fje
Jack Simth
First Post
I do remember reading a note that sometimes scrolls with spells that have XP costs are designed to draw it from the user.... can't quite remember where, though.
