D&D 5E With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base

Tony Vargas

Legend
But that's the thing. The people who didn't have problems in 3e were the people who were already following that specific playstyle that I outlined in my points above. So, sure, 3e supports that style of player very well. However, if you don't follow that advice, you start having problems. Thus any play outside of that very narrow playstyle is less and less supported the further you get from those points.
Well, unless you consider the bugs features. If you consider it 'realistic' that classes that cast spells are more important to the success of the party than others, for instance, or if you simply like delving into the most powerful possible build and maximizing it's power in-game.

/edit to add

To expand on my point. If I do the following:
  • No time limits on adventures.
  • Players decide pacing of adventures
  • Players are free to choose any option they qualify for.
  • High level play

my game is going to go kerblooie. It's going to be Angel Summoner and BMX bandit. The casters are going to have an absolute field day and the non-casters are going to be riding the pines. Yet, the style I just outlined there is very, very common. Sandbox play is predicated on the first three options. And none of this is because the players or DM are being jerks. It's a consequence of the mechanics.
Nod. There could be a 'time limit' in a Sandbox, in the sense that events go on around the characters regardless of the pace they choose to set. That may cause the players to fail at something they've decided to do, but it doesn't do anything to prevent the class imbalances that can occur when you deviate from the prescribed encounters/rounds/whatever per day in a system that builds pacing into balance.
 

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Argyle King

Legend
I just wanted to point out that an in-character viewpoint might have been more along the lines of "OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD, THIS CROCODILE IS GOING TO FREAKING EAT ME!!!" and less, "Now that I have a moment to myself, and I can finally take some time to look at these helpful spreadsheets, I feel that I can safely say that both I and my friends are safer while I'm being violently masticated by this vile reptile."


If -in character- I were actually being harmed, I would agree with you.

I didn't need to consult spreadsheets or anything like that. The physics of how things would play out were readily apparent to the senses of everyone involved in the situation.

Later; in a different game, I was playing a wizard who had the power Mirror Sphere. In that case it was even better for me to try to get eaten. One encounter ended with the creature we were fighting swallowing itself.
 


Ratskinner

Adventurer
I don't think narrativism has to be "high-falutin". Ron Edwards characterises The Dying Earth RPG as narrativist - correctly, in my view - but it hardly has a high-falutin premise. The aim of the game is to amuse your fellow participants by uttering tag lines in the cynical, detatched and verbose style of Vance's Dying Earth protagonists.

I wasn't saying that Narrativism had to be high-falutin, but "premise" is often presented that way (even in the Story Now, article, IMO: citation to books about dramatic writing texts and all). I don't have Dying Earth, but I don't know what from your description and the reviews I've read makes it particularly narrative, not to deny it but...

Personally, I find that "Narrativism" seems to get a fairly high-brow and strict treatment when talked about in the abstract, but then is given pretty broad berth when spoken about in the specific...like which games are Narrativist or not. Which seems the reverse of how the other agendas work. Its one of the reasons that I think Narrativism is poorly or perhaps incorrectly defined. Its what makes me a "reformed" Forgite.:D

As I think you know, I regard toning down the simulationism as pretty important to making low-key narrativist play possible: in my experience, it makes 4e the best version of D&D for narrativist play.

I also think that the toning down of the simulationism was achieved to a significant extent by adopting certain indie mechanics and tecniques, like overt fortune-in-the-middle mechanics, scene resolution (ie skill challenges), deliberate design in pursuit of pacing goals, etc.

Well, I've already shown how Old-school D&D uses (or can use) FitM, but I belong to the camp that doesn't think 4e was such a huge mechanical departure from previous editions (AEDU structure partially excepted).
 

pemerton

Legend
I just wanted to point out that an in-character viewpoint might have been more along the lines of "OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD, THIS CROCODILE IS GOING TO FREAKING EAT ME!!!" and less, "Now that I have a moment to myself, and I can finally take some time to look at these helpful spreadsheets, I feel that I can safely say that both I and my friends are safer while I'm being violently masticated by this vile reptile."
I think [MENTION=58416]Johnny3D3D[/MENTION]'s point - with which I agree - if that the game wants the player to take that viewpoint in character, then its mechanics should be consistent with that viewpoint - it should actually be worse to be chowed down on, not mechanically preferable!
 

pemerton

Legend
In my experience there are precisely two advantages to a dice pool system.

1: It's very visceral. And rolling ten dice at once is just fun.

2: It is very easy to reward the players by adding another dice or two.

<snip>

Other than that, dice pools mostly obfuscate.
Dice pools also allow the "it's always possible to fail" vibe while letting the odds of failure fall well below the "natural 1" rule in D&D.

And they support bounded accuracy - which is a gloss on your point number 2. Adding bonus dice has a meaningful impact on the prospects of success, but doesn't require scaling the obstacles out of sight in order for those obstacles to remain genuine.

As I mentioned upthread, BW gets away with the obfuscation, to a degree at least, because chances of success are less important than manipulating the size of your dice pool, relative to the obstacle faced, in order to tweak your PC's advancement. This is on the player side; on the GM side, narration of failure is of the "branching story" variety, so the players aren't penalised for not always focusing on maximinsing their prospects of success.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
they dislike the fortune-in-the-middle (derided using such phrases as "Schroedinger's hit points");

Objection! :lol: As someone who doesn't like HP in general, hit points have been that way since the beginning (or very near it.) I don't have any objection to FitM at all, but the way HP regularly forces minor "retcons" annoys me to no end. Its the length of the resolution, combined with numerous resolutions in between, that bugs me. Anyone who thinks that the Quantum-mechanical nature of the HP system is new to 4e is just fooling themselves. :rant:

I sometimes think that the differences between the adherents of the various editions comes down to what things they can tolerate being "abstract".
 

pemerton

Legend
I find that "Narrativism" seems to get a fairly high-brow and strict treatment when talked about in the abstract, but then is given pretty broad berth when spoken about in the specific...like which games are Narrativist or not.
Agreed. I've posted in the past that Ron Edwards gives too narrow a formal definition of narrativism, relative to the actual classifcations that he then makes (eg by his formal definition The Dying Earth is not narrativist, because not straightforwardly concerned with some "engaging issue or problematic feature of human existence". It is concerned with cyncial humour).

I don't have Dying Earth, but I don't know what from your description and the reviews I've read makes it particularly narrative
The key to the narrativist dimensions of Dying Earth are: (i) the GM's scenario design guidelines, which require paying attention to inane rites and customs, outlandish dress, etc; (ii) the refresh rules for character ability pools (every roll of the dice costs a point from the pool), which require doing inane or outlandish things; and (iii) the PC advancement rules, which grant points for advancement in return for uttering pre-allocated Vancian taglines (such as "Know, then, that I am a powerful wizard") in character, in the course of play, in such a way as to maximise the contextually-grounded humour of the utterance.

So looked at as a whole, the GM is trying to set up whacky situations which the players will engage via their PCs; and the PCs are looking for whacky situations which will permit them either to refresh their pools and/or utter their taglines; all with the goal of producing inane and cynical Vancian humour.

Edwards does say of The Dying Earth, Prince Valiant and some other narrativist RPGs:

These games are, for lack of a better word, "lighter" or perhaps more whimsical - they do raise issues and may include extreme content, but play-decisions tend to be less self-revealing.​

He also says:

The Dying Earth facilitates Narrativist play, because its Situations are loaded with the requirement for satirical, judgmental input on the part of the players.​

I take this as an implicit recognition of the limitations of his own formal characterisation of "story now". My own view is that "narrativism" is best used to characterise any non-simulationist play where the main goal is expressive or aesthetic (but not the self-referential aesthetics of satisfying simulationism - the value aimed at or expressed in narrativist play is external to the play experience itself). Whereas "gamism" is non-simulationist play where the main goal is winning, showing off, or otherwise "doing well".

Also, in digging up those passage on The Dying Earth, I also found this:

I'll begin by identifying a very common misconception: that if enjoyable Exploration is identifiable during play, then play must be Simulationist or at least partly so. This is profoundly mistaken: if you address Premise, it's Narrativist play. Period. If the Exploration involved, no matter how intensive, hones and focuses that addressing-Premise process, then that Exploration is still Narrativist, not Simulationist. . .

"El Dorado" was coined by Paul Czege to indicate the impossibility of a 1:1 Simulationist:Narrativist blend, although the term was appropriated by others for the blend itself, as a desirable goal. I think some people who claim to desire such a goal in play are simply looking for Narrativism with a very strong Explorative chassis, and that the goal is not elusive at all. Such "Vanilla Narrativism" is very easy and straightforward. The key to finding it is to stop reinforcing Simulationist approaches to play.​

That bit about "stopping reinforcing Simulationist approaches to play" is especially apposite to 4e's suitability for vanilla narrativism - it reverses the general trend of the previous 30 years of D&D design, which is to increase the simulationist orientation at every opportunity.

The other key step for stopping reinforcing Simulationism, in fantasy RPGing, is brought out in this passage:

In Simulationist play, morality cannot be imposed by the player or, except as the representative of the imagined world, by the GM. Theme is already part of the cosmos; it's not produced by metagame decisions. Morality, when it's involved, is "how it is" in the game-world, and even its shifts occur along defined, engine-driven parameters. The GM and players buy into this framework in order to play at all.

The point is that one can care about and enjoy complex issues, changing protagonists, and themes in both sorts of play, Narrativism and Simulationism. The difference lies in the point and contributions of literal instances of play​

I also think that 4e makes this easier than earlier versions of D&D, through its almost complete abandonment of mechanical alignment, and through its changes to the cosmology, which make it less something to be explored and figured out, and more something to take a stance in relation to.

But that view of the metagame function of 4e's cosmology is probably contentious.

EDIT:

Objection!
Objection noted. But I think your's is the less common angle of attack on hit points. There is post after post on these boards explaining how hit points are fine and dandy and merely abstract, and its short-rest healing plus 4e's death and dying rules that rendered the abstraction into an "unviable" FitM mechanic.
 
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Ahnehnois

First Post
. Anyone who thinks that the Quantum-mechanical nature of the HP system is new to 4e is just fooling themselves. :rant:
Absolutely. The 4e take on the subject just shoves it in your face a little more.

Similarly, D&D has always had experience and levels, which have always been abstract and have never been good mechanics (and the former of which is commonly houseruled, often to extinction). But when 3e tried to make it more a part of the game world with XP costs for spells and magic item creation, it didn't exactly go over well. XP always existed, it was always marginally tolerated, but making XP costs part of the game was a step backwards.

Similarly, hp have always been there and have always been marginally tolerable at best on a variety of levels, but healing surges and warlords are some sizable straws to be putting on the camel's back.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
<snippage about Dying Earth>
My own view is that "narrativism" is best used to characterise any non-simulationist play where the main goal is expressive or aesthetic (but not the self-referential aesthetics of satisfying simulationism - the value aimed at or expressed in narrativist play is external to the play experience itself). Whereas "gamism" is non-simulationist play where the main goal is winning, showing off, or otherwise "doing well".

I would agree to that with the note that I find it curious you define both G and N in terms of not-S. (Can/would you define S and N in terms of not-G, and G and S in terms of not-N?)

Objection noted. But I think your's is the less common angle of attack on hit points. There is post after post on these boards explaining how hit points are fine and dandy and merely abstract, and its short-rest healing plus 4e's death and dying rules that rendered the abstraction into an "unviable" FitM mechanic.

Oh, I know it. They called me mad at the University...:lol: I fear commenting more on this arena may summon edition warriors.:eek:

As usual, thanks for the thoughtful post.
 

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